[Fermat]

I'm currently trying to put together some books for a new associate degree program that will begin Fall 2015 and want to hit the ground running with a complete syllabus ready for review.

Although "intro" and "comprehensive" welding texts are plentiful and actually *generally* of a fairly high quality, we will be teaching students who are fairly seasoned welders an in-depth course on fabrication, repair and layout for non-standard parts.

Most of what I can find is either too elementary and redundant upon their previous knowledge or deals with highly specialized machinery repair, flat out metallurgy/physics/engineering and sheet-metal centric curriculum.

There are some good welders in this class, but I really would like to leave the fluid calculus to the engineers when teaching an associate level program.

Do you have any suggestions for a quality text?

These are students whose background has been geared towards production environment structural and pipe oriented layout/cutting/fitting/welding with an emphasis on SMAW followed by GMAW/FCAW and GTAW.

I'm also having trouble finding ANYTHING dealing (in any great length) with GMAW pipe welding. We can, of course, do what we should be doing and teach them ourselves (which we will and always have done), but...state run schools... gotta have the arbitrary metrics to put in their computer machines and make charts and whatnot.
Also a good reference book IS a handy tool indeed.
I'm looking for a good one.

Already found the replacement for our blueprint class. The previous one was clearly written by and for machinists (which is awesome and informative, but not what I am looking for with this program)

It may help to know that our go to textbook is "Welding Skills (Fourth edition)" By: B.J Moniz and R.T Miller. And we like it quite a bit to be honest.

Yes I am "new" to my role and haven't had the time to contact the primary seller for "official" advice. I'm already sick of the sales pitches. I got books coming out of my ears and so far all I've learned is that books on welding sheet metal likely comprise 10% of the Earth's mass.
Oh and "THE FUTURE" is something we should all be so excited about that we drop what we're doing and drive there right NOW.

Thank you for any input you can provide!

N00bie,
Fermat

P.S: We just got one of those Lincoln virtual trainer gizmos and it really is interesting. Now if we can make a VR method available for simulating leaning on a grinder till your fingers went numb...but I'm not complaining.

[Wes917]

I think I would look at Hobart and Lincoln's curriculum. Their pretty intensive. You can look at go arts books here
http://www.welding.org/c-36-books.aspx

I've bought books from them for reference and their pretty good. Also some great texts at aws.

Congrats on the new position btw

[Otto Nobedder]

Jody has recommended "Metals and How to Weld Them," but I don't know the author.

Are you familiar with it?

If not, I'll try to dig it up.

Steve S

[admin]

I think I would look at Hobart and Lincoln's curriculum. Their pretty intensive. You can look at go arts books here
http://www.welding.org/c-36-books.aspx

I've bought books from them for reference and their pretty good. Also some great texts at aws.

Congrats on the new position btw

Yes, I agree with Wes917, http://www.welding.org/images/document/222.pdf
Hobart has some good training materials and gmaw pipe is one of them.
you can opt for the DVD package with instructor guide and workbook /quizes along with a tech guide for about 1000 bucks.
or...the workbooks themselves are around 21 bucks each.
http://www.welding.org/c-8-student-work ... urses.aspx

1000 bucks might sound like a lot but it sure does free up an instructors time to provide demonstrations to students only after student has watched the DVD demo, tried it, and still needs a physical demonstration.

best,

jody

[Fermat]

Thanks for the help everyone. I'm going to look these over (it's a lot of info for me) but at the moment this seems to be exactly what I was searching for.

Our previous Fab books were farm equipment repair. while that does have it's place, like half the book was stuff like "Never weld in front of horses. They are curious about welding." haha

Best,
Fermat

[Tater]

How about working right to the AWS or Petroleum Institute code, for process at least?

This one is awesome- Pipe Welding Procedures (Hardcover) – January 1, 2003
by Hoobasarl Rampaul (Author) ISBN-13: 978-0831131418 ISBN-10: 0831131411 Edition: 2nd
and not expensive.

Also ESAB's TIG welding handbook.

[mcoe]

I really like the book Welding Essentials. It is a great book full of information. http://www.amazon.com/Welding-Essential ... essentials

[Fermat]

Meeting the AWS standards and codes are ultimately the goal of these classes strive to achieve. Their books are unquestionably full of all the right data, but as neil degrasse tyson put it (poorly paraphrased):
"Education involves more than just putting the facts out there...It has to be an act of persuasion...persuasion is "here are the facts"-plus an understanding and sensitivity to the audience."
Those AWS books are very "insensitive" lol

Kind of starting to warm up to the idea of suggesting changing the whole structure of the class-room time to accommodate these Hobart courses that Wes917 and Jody recommended.

A thousand bucks is a lot of money, but these materials are a gold mine. I'll probably skip the "site license"; We have a very robust student center capable of putting the video material in front of them whenever they wish.

We've got a great relationship with Miller at the moment but I have to wonder if we'll be stepping on their toes by adopting this.

We'll shop it around the other instructors and see how they take to the idea. A couple are very set in their ways so I'll provide a couple of optional texts. I may have to work around that. We'll see.

You guys are remarkably helpful and I owe you. I planned on pulling my hair out putting this together and it been a joy.

I haven't read (thoroughly enough) the posting guidelines and don't know how long a thread can remain idle before it gets the boot, but I will keep you updated on any final decisions and, if allowed, the state of the program in general.

Thanks again,

Fermat

[Otto Nobedder]

Fermat,

There is no "expiration date" on posts, so your topic will be here whenever you wish to come back to it.

I commend you for your desire to "get it right" and further education in the trades. I cannot speak to the learning experience in the schools, as I was self-taught and field-trained, learning the practical long before I understood the theory. The complaints I've read on the current teaching model suggest a complete makeover is in order, though, and I'm glad to know someone at the head of that battle.

Steve S

[Boomer63]

Hi Fermat! You ask a lot of good questions, and it sounds like you are an instructor after my own heart. Someone cited the pipe welding book by Hoobasarl Rampaul. I think that is a great resource. Another post mentioned the “Welding Essentials” book. I have been a welding instructor at the college level for three years now, teaching comprehensive multi-process welding/fabrication/blueprint courses and here is what I think:

A good book helps, but the students learn to weld from YOU! I try to limit my lectures to no more than ten minutes at a time. The students want to weld, not listen to me. Now, sometimes I have more information than can be relayed in ten minutes, so what I do is break it up. I like to play video from “Welding Tips and Tricks”. I caution students about who to watch on ‘YouTube’; come of those cats really, really don’t know what they are doing. I do demonstrations for the students, in small groups. When they are beginners, I spend a LOT of time running my tail off from booth to booth helping and correcting, helping and correcting, helping and correcting. I do a lot of hand over hand. To me, the students make two kinds of mistakes: the kind when their mechanics are wrong (bad angles, arc length, etc.), or mistakes where they are still developing the eye hand coordination. My job is to keep them from the worst of the mechanical mistakes. The eye hand/attention to detail skills come from practice, practice, practice – not from listening to me lecture or from any text book.

“Conventional Wisdom” has the students starting out doing those circles, or whatever. I start them out on 6011 doing stringers. I have them manipulate (weave) from day one. That is what they will need to do to pass a 3G test – and – it is very easy to run a stringer with no manipulation if you are great at manipulating. After about 20 to 24 hours, we move on to lap joints and then fillet welds, all flat position. I move them along FAST! Why? Why move them along when they aren’t ready? A couple of reasons! I test them at every joint. I fill out an evaluation tool that I made up and score them off of that tool. It helps them to get used to the stress of taking tests. It makes them get off of one joint and on to another. All this time, they are learning and growing. I encourage them to watch each other and help each other. At EVERY stage, they have to be able to identify discontinuities within their welds, what they are and why they are happening. They bring me their welds and show them to me and I ask them: “What do you see?” When I do these quick evaluations I first comment on what I see done RIGHT, then move on to what is wrong. And then we move on, and move on and move on.

I have a virtual welder, a Lincoln. The school I am currently at had one when I started. I used to distain the virtual. But, now I use it on my Noobs. It is amazing for helping them develop eye hand coordination. I use the SMAW function of a flat plate. I rotate the class in and out of the virtual and the real world. Like I say, for the first day or two it works WONDERS for helping them develop eye/hand.

I think the most important thing I do is to SPEAK ENCOURAGEMENT INTO THEIR HEARTS!! I build them up. I am not unrealistic, and I have no use for the lazy fools who don’t want to attend on a regular basis. But to the ones who are here working hard, I do my best to encourage the build them up.

Sorry for the long post! Good luck! Email if you have any questions!
Boomer63

[Otto Nobedder]

Boomer63,

Thanks for bumping this topic to the top of the page!

The flaws in a great many teaching models irk the hell out of me, and I'm glad to hear from someone who seems to have a model that WORKS!

I believe we need a sanctioning body to certify welding instructors. I'm leaning toward speaking to the major manufacturers to build a common standard, in a cooperative way.

Steve S

[Boomer63]

Hi Otto Nobedder, (LOVE the name, by the way!),
I am always afraid of any kind of 'committee' or any kind of structure in charge that wants to 'oversee' any thing like this. To me, they always end up being run by folks who have 'paperwork' (degrees) with limited practical experience, and then they end up requiring 'paperwork' in order to be able to work! See what I mean?

The question I always pose is this: Assuming both guys can teach, as a student, who would you rather learn from? The guy who has a four year degree in welding or 'industrial arts', who worked in the industry for five years at one company doing one or two processes - OR! - The guy with NO 'paperwork' who has twenty plus years experience, multiple work environments, multiple process and has faced many, many unusual on the job challenges? Now, a committee of people with degrees will always choose the cat with the paperwork. But as a student, who would you want?

I am not the greatest teacher or the greatest welder/fabricator. I got into this because I was going to be too busted up to return to field work for a few years. I never realized how much I would love it! I can go back in the field and make a heck of a lot more money, and I wouldn't have to put up with whiny, complaining, entitlement mentality, spoiled brats who don't realize how good they have it. But what makes it all worth it are the folks who come through the program and who are eager to learn. They want to learn this craft. They want to get into a field where their skill set will be appreciated. Seeing the good ones get good jobs is a real thrill!

I think that our more experienced hands who believe that they have a gift of education need to look at this field. Now, not everyone can teach. And it is true that there is a lot of 'bull shit' attached to dealing with the suit and tie educational types. But life is full of hoops to jump through. Also, it helps to remember that I am working inside in the winter and have indoor plumbing; no more little plastic houses! But again, seeing the students turn into welders, seeing them learn real skills and finding good paying jobs is a real, real treat.

Sigh. Sorry my posts are so long.
Boomer63

[Otto Nobedder]

Hi Otto Nobedder,
...
Sigh. Sorry my posts are so long.
Boomer63

Don't sweat that. When you have useful things to say, it takes as long as it takes...

I agree that a "sanctioning body" is going to have some built-in beaurocracy; It's the nature of the beast. In a perfect world, though, the suits would stick to structure and "rule of law", while the standards and testing would be established and maintained by us "mutts" (those without papers or pedigree... )

I think I'll have to write Jody a rather lengthy e-mail on the subject; He deals with many schools and may have valuable information on how schools like TWS vet their instructors. Such a process could readily be converted to a standard. Having such a standard can be sold to welding schools as a marketing tool; "Our instructors meet the Nobedder Standard (tounge firmly in cheek)."

Steve S

[Boomer63]

Well Steve, I can't think of a better name for the regulation than the 'Nobedder Standard'! I mean, you have to call it something, right?

My first teaching gig at the college level was at a college in a small town in Minnesota, right on the Mississippi river, about a half hour up river from La Crosse, Wisconsin. Very, very good program there, taught by a very, very good instructor. The guy running that program "talks the talk and walks the walk" - he is a great welder/fabricator with over twenty years of experience. He has a very well thought out and thorough program, which will prep anyone for working the in the fab shops in that area. They don't do pipe; I guess the philosophy is that anyone who wants to learn pipe is going to get additional training, from doing something like joining a union.

Over in Wisconsin, there are some amazingly good programs. Oshkosh, Appleton, Beaver Dam, Wausau, Wisconsin Rapids, Janesville and Green Bay just to name a few. Now, I am not implying that other programs in the state aren't as good, I am only familiar with these mentioned. Same thing in Minnesota; lots of really good programs.


Maybe if someone were to develop a basic outline for what a good, comprehensive curriculum looks like? You would also have to consider that there are different levels of training. In the city I am currently in, I can give just about anyone twenty or so hours of training on a wire feed gun, and that cat can then go find a job paying in the $10 to $13 per hour range. If I want to enter the work place in my region, do I need pipe skills? Or is that training I will never use? I strongly believe that any real, comprehensive training must include multiprocessing and blue print. I teach my students that actual welding skill is only about 25% of what it takes to be a "journeyman". Metal fabrication, layout, fit up, metallurgy, equipment use, blueprint and job professionalism (knowing how to act and express one's self as a professional) make up the other 75%. All of this has to be taught in addition to actual welding - but then again, how much?

I would love to be involved in any discussion about this topic. I don't think anyone can devise ONE standard that covers ALL programs. Like I say, different regions are looking for different skills. Also, I think you really have to consider how LONG the program duration is going to be. This cat in Georgia, with the associates degree program sounds like he is on the right track: for those students who want an associates degree. Someone can spend two years in welding school, as opposed to one year, spend twice the money on education, but they won't make twice the money in the real world.

Maybe the thing to do would be to develop different 'outlines', or 'modules'. Then, any school could 'plug in' what ever module (out line) that best served their purposes, budget, student population, etc. The 'modules' could also be mixed and matched; lets say I like the blueprint and metal fab schedule from this module, and want use just that in ... you see? Lots of available combinations, rather than just one rigid standard.

It is a pleasure to talk about this subject. I am just an old, decrepit mutt myself. Shoot, I only got into teaching because I was too busted up to hit the field! Hey, I have traveling a lot over the last twenty years, but maybe I found a place to land. Maybe not. But, here in teaching I will stay!

Thanks!
Gary S

[Otto Nobedder]

Gary,

There's a lot of good ideas there! I like the idea of creating "modules" to define training based on student needs. A "MIG on plate/structural iron" module, combined with a "print-reading" and an "interpersonal communication" class would prepare a student to work in very many fab shops. Just one example, and I think you expressed the same idea.

Breaking skills requirements for instructors into modules would be very helpful for schools when seeking an instructor, as they wouldn't need to buy more skills than they need, yet could still know the person is "qualified" for the skills they're hiring.

I'm a mixed-breed, like a Labradoodle... I have four years of college, yet prefer to have dirt under my fingernails. I've worked everything from a fab shop to a railyard... Power plant to bio-deisel plant. Grassroot and shutdown. I just don't have the stamina for those 7/12 schedules anymore, so I've settled in one location doing work I find very interesting.

I am constantly amazed at the poor results I see for our weld test, which has no WPS. Our test is strictly visual, welder's choice on all settings and specifications; It's aboiut seeing if they (a) know how to set up a machine, and (b) have done the processes before. There's a TIG on pipe, a TIG fillet, a MIG on pipe-to-plate, and a MIG fillet, all stainless steel. Easiest weld test ever, as we're not hiring welders; We're hiring mechanics who can weld.

Steve S

[Fermat]

Hello! Thanks for the input. I like the incorporation of expected professionalism into the entirety of the program.

I try to break the students into three "primary" groups.

1: The kids who just want to know what this "welding" thing is all about and maybe get a paper from the school saying they did it, maybe hang out and smoke a joint, look at the girls ect ect. (This represents the majority of the first semester body imo and I respect them for their curiosity in spite of their understandable impatience and lack of coachability (they ARE kids after all). We have a single semester program designed for them.
I am trying to make this one more of a module (drop in/pull out) curriculum so we can have them learn what they want and not try to turn it into a "cram" course.
Cram courses work for highly motivated individuals, but they are expensive and this isn't the group for that and I feel teaching students things they don't think they need vies for one of the most important things I try to do...
I consider a student who re-enrolls after the "basic welding" curriculum a "win" in my book.

2: Guys/Gals who have a specific job either lined up/in sight or are actually being put through by their respective employers (more of those lately)
This is the group our current certification course-load is designed for. After the "Basic Welding" curriculum is completed (It's really just the first half of the "Cert Course") we spend time on work-sites, plants, job-shops to get them familiar with the flow and atmosphere of production work, though the "job-shop" visits are rare it can scare some or (hopefully) inspire others.
The rest of the time is spent with concentration on passing one of two certifications we offer: SMAW Structural Plate (1G) and GMAW 1G.

3: The Associate degree folks. We have a few students who just stay hungry for experience after the cert program. Many of these have jobs and some of those have nothing to do with metal work in the slightest.
These are the students I expect to be able to send to any familiar welding job, pass their test and start earning and moving on or finding a "home" with an employer that likes them.
I wish to introduce some true metallurgy, electrical function and functional chemistry and physics in the capstone courses. (stuff like "why electricity melts metal and what constitutes the differences between "toughness", "hardness" and where the differences would be most important.

This is also a "cert" course and we're currently wrangling together some AWS testers capable of granting 6G papers for any process. I wish to steer them towards a TIG root SMAW fill and cap.
The ins and outs are something I'm still learning so this may need to change based on who the school lets us hire.

I guess if I would consider it as a whole, I'd call it a good solid stepping off point for shop welders, production standouts, future millwrights, journeymen and even machinists.

As I've said, the texts are largely a rubber stamp for the approval process by the school (it's a state funded community college focusing mostly on academic degrees. It's not a full fledged "trade school"), but this program has sorta become a flagship for the school and that image may be updated a bit. I'm uncertain if I'm happy about that or not, but it does allow me freedoms and funding that previously I would not have had.

I'm excited either way and am optimistic as to what this attention to production skills portends for the "American Way", as it were.

Fermat

[Otto Nobedder]

Hi, Fermat,

I'm "almost" sorry we hijacked your post... You started a great discussion!

I agree, having your program rising to the "flagship" postion at the community college puts you in an interesting position. You get a lot more flexibility and control than the guy directing the building trades program, as a random example, but it puts a lot of pressure on you to perform, to continue to improve and possibly expand the program, and produce a good "post-cert employment" percentage that the school can use to sell the program.

I'd suggest you stay active on this topic. As you've seen, there are some interested people here willing to discuss the matter in great detail, so feel free to field any question here as you nail down your various syllabi for the diferent programs.

Steve S

[WTFH]

Not sure why I felt compelled to ramble on but here is my two cents.

While curriculum is important it is not the most important thing. The instructor’s standards of acceptability are by far the most important thing an instructor brings to the welding shop. You can blast through the curriculum and say hey look we just completed the Hobart curriculum and the student can’t weld worth a damn because the instructor standards are in the toilet. I've seen it done….
Second is can you communicate your skill to the student, this is not easily done. Do you understand how each student learns? There is a big difference. We just started TIG, I demonstrate how to hold torch and filler in the classroom, we watched portions of a few videos, I gave a live demo emphasizing the stepping method (move stop dip) all of the students pretty much got it but one did not. This kid works his tail off but he didn't get it. I finally had to put my hand on his hands, torch and filler, and had him operate the peddle. When he saw it from his perspective, not looking over my shoulder, he got it or maybe he had to feel his hands move who knows. Be prepared, not everyone learns like you do. Get to know each and everyone’s techniques, strengths and weaknesses. It is a rare occasion when a kid shows me a weld if I’m busy doing something else like programming the CNC and I don’t know who they are without seeing their face or hearing them talk.
Why are you having the students perform a particular task? What do you expect them to learn, how will this benefit them down the road in your class. This is the biggest mistake welding teachers make not really knowing why they are doing what they are doing. And at what level do they need to perform that task before they move on and why. Oh, well, you have to weld horizontal before you weld overhead isn't good enough and neither is you have to walk before you run. Why are you using a particular rod or process first, again how will this benefit them in the long run of your program and or make it easier for them to learn more advanced tasks.

Time, a teacher can use the best curriculum out there but if you don’t provide ample time for the students to progress they have failed them. Again I have seen teachers using the Hobart curriculum but they fall way short in the time allotted compared to Hobart. When is it time for the next task, once again did they learn what they should have, what’s next and why, what are your standards of acceptability.

Curriculum, there is plenty of it out there and most is probably just fine. The light at the end of the tunnel and how you get there is what is important. What is the capstone so to speak of your program, what should they have learned. Our local CC gives out CWI stamped pipe and tube papers all day long but in talking to the apprentice coordinators of the locals when they see these papers they pretty much just wrinkle them up. The reason, crappy instructors, and limited time.

Massive intervention to start and gradually pull away. Make the students tell and show you how they approach a new task, make them use the skills they have and make them believe in themselves.

Judge the success of you efforts on the average student. Anyone can learn welding to some extent even with the crappiest teacher especially the naturally talented. But the average student tells the tale. And when you can get the “where’s the party and who is bringing the beer” crowd to turn around that’s a bonus.

I have taught welding at the high school level for 30 years at a school that has everything from cosmetology to carpentry and seen lots of teachers come and go, the above are just some of the things the good ones have in common. I believe there is always room for improvement in my teaching, I don’t know it all.
Just some rambling thoughts…..
John

[Fermat]

Thank you. I'll always have an ear to listen to experienced educators. Especially trade educators. The amount of attention needed to effectively evaluate student progress in performing a physical action alone is pretty intense (dance instructor comes to mind) but adding in the academic portion makes things so much more complex. Consistent dedication from instructors is a necessity while also, understandably and unfortunately, fairly rare.

All of the questions you posed I try very hard to know the answers to.
It is a constant struggle to find the right class size, though. Ideally, the situation is something along the lines of being a one on one tutor for a given student till that flower blooms ect. But IRL it's probably more efficient (for me) to have a class of about 6-8 per lecture/lab.
Yet the dichotomy shows up very quickly when trying to squeeze in "just ONE more student. Ok maybe even one more and thats it" till it's down to "ok, who do want to let down? Those in my class, or those who want to join my class?"
It's part of the double edged sword of trying to provide both quality and quantity.

And I also want to correct myself in my previous post where i spoke of the texts being a "rubber stamp" type thing. I want good books. The point of looking for quality materials is at it's very heart supposed to be an effort multiplier more than simply a source of information for the students. While I do want these texts to be a fountain the students can return to whenever they please, I need them more to give at least some structure to refer to when class pacing becomes an issue. Some classes progress at such startlingly different rates that it's astounding at times and frankly, having a quality pre-formed lecture and testing package to "dog ear" and apply when needed will be a priceless tool to possess.

Thank you for your advice!

[WTFH]

You’re welcome, certainly not the definitive list just some things that came to mind.

Class size, you can accomplish so much more with a smaller group. If I only had six or eight students the school would close my program for lack of enrollment hopefully you can keep your class sizes that small. I have 21 juniors and 17 seniors and have approximately 1 ½ hours in the lab with them each day. I had to kick and scream to get them to cap the class at 21 as I usually have about 30 apply. Do the math that’s about 4 min. with each student per day and with all of the other things that go on daily. No way I spend time with all of them, but I do expect them to show their work to me multiple time each day. I have found that once the basics are in place you can correct a lot with oral instructions, it just depends on the student. I always grin when I see people pile on to a welding teacher. If the teacher can’t weld that is one thing but when I hear that they don’t spend time with me I just kinda cringe and hope that in not the case. The game is easy to play in the stands. At my level there is so much more going on. I’m a lonely hearts counselor, drug counselor, bereavement counselor, Mom Dad, employment service, and when I get some major A__HOLES in the class, babysitter….. My time is limited to actually teach welding. It’s amazing how much better things run without the Aholes.

When students’ progress faster than others I will have them “peer tutor” (education loves that) the students who are behind. Boomer and I have PMed about this, you just have to be careful how you use it so you don’t have bad habits being taught but it accomplishes a lot.

John

[Boomer63]

I see the utility of having a program where a student can get an associates degree. I think that, going forward, 'paperwork' is going to become more and more important. The program I run is a one year program and any student, after completing the welding course, can then pursue an associates by taking the academic classes. My idea is to get them in here for a year, and in that year educate them as much as I can in SMAW, GMAW, GTAW, FCAW, (all positions), oxy/fuel cutting, plasma cutting, blue print reading, metal fabrication, professionalism and pipe. Students can earn AWS Certifications in SMAW 3G, GMAW 3G and GTAW aluminum 1G. I have them in class for about 24 hours per week. Missing days will very quickly result in a failing grade. It might sound like a lot, but, as I teach the students; their skill level grows like a balloon, not in columns. What I mean is that as we are going through SMAW, they don't have time to 'master' a 6011 fillet weld. But that doesn't matter. We move on and move on and move on. Their skill level is constantly increasing, and they are learning that a puddle is a puddle is a puddle. For example, at the end of the ten week session on SMAW, I have them 'go back' and retake a test on something like the 6011 fillet. They are amazed at how easy it is, now with the level they are at.

The school I am currently at will cap class sizes at 16 students. When I was teaching at a college in Minnesota, class size was about 20. That was fine, you learn how to stay on top of things. When I was teaching in ironworker apprenticeship, class size could be around 40. I currently have about ten, and for me that is a breeze. A smaller class can be more fun, too.

As Otto pointed out, we did kind of hi-jack your thread. But, these kinds of issues are the kinds of things that come up!

Gary