[JustTheDad]

Hi Guys,

Very new to welding. I'm a doc who works in clinical trials and a hobby wood worker. My son is a senior in HS who will probably be heading off to Virginia Tech this fall for aerospace engineering and he decided he wanted to learn to weld. Since I had some projects that require welding, we bought a Miller 211 and safety gear. Also a harbor freight folding table and a couple of clamps.

We've been welding 1/8 square tubing, 1/8" coupons, and some 16g 1.25" round tubing, and learning what we can from videos and books. We want to get better at GMAW and learn TIG welding, but the local tech college just changed it's certificate classes to online and deferred all the labs to this fall. That won't work for my son since he'll be out of state, so I sent an email off to a local fabrication/welding shop (recently opened by 3 young guys, 2 of whom graduated from a nearby tech college and are welders). My email basically asks whether they'd be interested in instructing us on GMAW and TIG welding if things are slow due to COVID19 and they have any extra time. I did offer to provide our own welding equipment and metal and to wear N95 masks.

Does this seem like a reasonable way to try and learn and avoid bad habits, and do you have any other suggestions in the current pandemic lockdown?
Thanks,
Todd

[TraditionalToolworks]

so I sent an email off to a local fabrication/welding shop (recently opened by 3 young guys, 2 of whom graduated from a nearby tech college and are welders). My email basically asks whether they'd be interested in instructing us on GMAW and TIG welding if things are slow due to COVID19 and they have any extra time. I did offer to provide our own welding equipment and metal and to wear N95 masks.

That might be a tough one during this mess, IMO, but something to consider is your son might not be able to start school either, the way things are going. As it is, Dentists are still not allowed to have patient visits and no word on that. Hair salons are not even open in my area, nothing that has groups of people.

Does this seem like a reasonable way to try and learn and avoid bad habits, and do you have any other suggestions in the current pandemic lockdown?

Yeah, that's a tough one. Not sure what the status is on training, but I'm sure most must be halted. If you can find a local welder that is good at instruction that would be a good way to go. Most private instruction is not cheap. Many tig welding workshops are in the $1k range for a 2 day workshop. Community colleges are a good alternative, but the courses are spread out so that probably wouldn't work even if they were going.

You might check with Jonathan Lewis, he's in Ohio, does the WTAT podcast with Jody and Roy. His company is Superior Welding and Fab. You can contact him on this forum at:

memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=4039

Or visit his website and send him an email: (probably the best way)

https://www.superiorweldandfab.com/

[JustTheDad]

Things are pretty locked down right now, but I still suspect schools will start on time here in NC and in Virginia. We'll see. Clearly college campuses will make ideal CDC's (Covid Distribution Center), but thankfully, most college kids are at low risk of serious complications. I think the schools will require masks during lectures, you're right, they may simply do the fall semester online. We'll see.

The manager at the Welding and Fabrication shop emailed me back since I posted here. He had questions about our equipment and goals, but thought one of the two welders would be able to work something out with us.

I don't think there are any workshops going on right now, which is sad, but very understandable. Same situation with the tech schools. Regarding Jonathan Lewis, Ohio seems like a long way to go to get some welding lessons. Were you thinking he might know someone who could act as an instructor in our area?

Thanks
Todd

[TraditionalToolworks]

Things are pretty locked down right now, but I still suspect schools will start on time here in NC and in Virginia. We'll see. Clearly college campuses will make ideal CDC's (Covid Distribution Center), but thankfully, most college kids are at low risk of serious complications. I think the schools will require masks during lectures, you're right, they may simply do the fall semester online. We'll see.

I don't think we know enough about the virus yet, and it seems that many have jumped to conclusions and are now back peddling on many aspects about it.

The company I work at hasn't cast in stone when we will go back in the office, but my manager said that since we're in R&D we would possibly be working at home until the end of the year, even if we start going into the office that it would take time to get back like we were. I don't have a problem with that, I have what I need at home.

Regarding Jonathan Lewis, Ohio seems like a long way to go to get some welding lessons. Were you thinking he might know someone who could act as an instructor in our area?

My thinking was that Jonathan does welding classes, as noted on his web page. I think he's done some with Roy. I was thinking they may have something either scheduled in your area or close enough for you, or that they could recommend someone in your area that could. I would be cautious on just contacting someone without knowing/seeing their work or knowing someone that has been instructed by them and seen the actual work they've done. Lots of good welders are not good teachers, lots of good teachers are not good welders the same, something else to consider.

I would definitely put trust in the 3 Musketeers (don't quote me on that) from WTAT.

[cj737]

@Dad - First thing I'd strongly encourage you to do is grab some heavier material to practice on. And configure your Miller for Stick if possible. Getting a foundation in Stick is paramount to becoming a solid TIG welder (and a good MIG welder) in my experience. Understanding the puddle, manipulating a rod (later, filler material and torch) are key to welding properly. Otherwise, one can fall into the trap of "I set the machine per the specs, pulled the trigger, but my welds fail/are crap. I don't understand what's wrong?" becomes the narrative. Not saying this will be you or your son, but it is all too common.

I wish I had seen this post last night, I would have had you bump up the road to my place in Richmond. I could have put your boy under a hood to weld up some 1/4" aluminum! Or, set him up outside with a Stick rig and a 50# box of 7018. I have plenty of salvage 1/2" plate we could oxytocin's cut and have him weld until Jesus returns.

Unfortunately, I off to Alabama for the weekend, so maybe another time. Happy to put him under a hood and keep him safe. He will either learn to weld, or become the worlds best grinder

[JustTheDad]

Thanks Alan. We're involved in some of the trials you see in the news, so I suspect my colleagues and I are more up to date than most people, and none of us have a clue as to when life will get back to normal. We do know that spread is primarily via respiratory droplets, so until everyone starts to wear a mask in any public area and also in most urban environments, we're not going to decrease the rate of new cases dramatically.
The whole 6 feet away idea is unbelievably stupid and harmful. Respiratory droplets can stay airborne for quite a while and travel more than 6 feet. The 6 foot idea is based on a droplet over 5 microns, but you expel lots of droplets smaller than that every time you speak, especially when you used percussive sounds like the letter P. If there's airflow, 5 micron droplets can also stay aloft and they do shrink over time. I know it feels strange to wear one in public, but anyone you see not wearing a mask at the supermarket or HomeDepot or Walmart or in any public area where there are others, is either very unaware or being uncaringly rude.
And now that I'm done ranting (sorry), thank you also for the advice regarding checking their work and good points regarding some can teach and some can't.

CJ737,
Thank you for the incredibly nice offer and I hope you are enjoying Alabama. I think we're about 3 1/2 hours south of you. We live one town left of Durham.
Also, we're limited to 110 volts in the garage. I have several 220V outlets in the wood shop, but until I clean up the dust and set up the free stove hood we picked up on CL to use as a fume extractor, we won't be welding down there. Even with two air cleaners on the walls, a 5hp cyclone plumbed to all the general tools and a dedicated 2hp cyclone on the CNC machine, I've still managed to coat everything in site with sawdust. When the second garage/tractor and equipment shed is built, I'll have 220 available there, but until then, we're going to be limited on heavy metal welding for a bit. Such is life.

Stay well
Todd

[cj737]

Stick weld outdoors, Dad. That's the way it works in the real world in the field Make a portable vise/clamping stand, run your leads to it, power up, and light it up!

[Poland308]

Your instructor can stand 6ft or more away and still give lots of on point advice that will speed up your learning exponentially. It’s not like you have to both share the same hood.

[tweake]

covid aside for a moment, one thing you really need to watch is that anyone teaching you guys is actually a decent teacher.
i find teaching someone is actually harder than doing the welding. not everyone is a teacher.

the other thing to watch is that the workshop you go to actually knows and uses the skills you want to learn. that may sound weird but many workshops may only do one kind of welding. or they are production based and cut corners everywhere, and you get taught how to cut corners rather than proper welding.

you will never be good if you don't get taught what good is.

[Poland308]

Also consider using a good fume extractor. The air flow will draw away and filter out not only welding fumes but tiny droplets, lots if smaller units use hepa filters before discharging air.

[JustTheDad]

Hi Josh. That's a good thought, the airflow, but the airflow required to take care of respiratory droplets would be so high, it would be like welding outside in a strong breeze. I think that would starve the weld of any argon.

My son and I did get a stove hood that should have enough flow to work as a fume extractor, but it's very low flow compared to something I'd use for respiratory droplet protection. Filtration for respiratory droplets isn't even like HEPA filters for allergies. Since we keep producing droplets as we speak, the air filtration rate has to be extremely high and produce sufficient air flow to make sure any respiratory droplets are moving through the filters before they get to another person in the room. Think of it like filtering allergens out of the air in your house with a window open and a breeze blowing, and where a single tiny particle could kill you. Having all parties wear a surgical mask, or better yet, an N95/N99 mask, is the only way I can think of to prevent transmission of the Corona virus . At least until we have a working vaccine.

Thanks again for the advice on what to look for in an instructor. I know the shop advertises they do both GMAW and TIG, but based on the advice here, I'll check them out more carefully!

[Poland308]

Most fume extractors work with a very high velocity, they have to to be able to draw the fumes and heavy metal particles. That said they are set up to pull air away without disturbing the gas flow at the cup. Even in my garage in the summer I’ll set up a metal fan 6 to 12 inches away from my weld, but pointed away from the weld. Keeps the fumes pushed towards the outside or my exhaust fan. And helps pull heat out of my parts and away from me.

[JustTheDad]

Interesting and good to know. I checked the CFM on a Miller mobile fume extractor, and it said 875 CFM. That's comparable to both the air cleaners in my wood shop combined, and even close to my main dust collector at the tool end of the pipe.
So I was wrong and you are right. If that intake were between you and someone else who was a few feet away, it probably would have enough flow to protect you. It was REALLY expensive though. Almost $6000. My entire dust collecting system probably cost less than that, and I think it's a pretty impressive setup for a home shop. Of course mine just filters dust, not fumes, but if we piped the air outside, it would do the same thing. I didn't realize I could TIG weld with something like that only a foot or so away. Course sucking Sparks and molten splatter into tubes coated with dust is probably a horrible idea

[TraditionalToolworks]

I think it's best to stick weld outside also...in fact, I don't have a problem welding in my garage with the door closed if I'm doing tig, but not so for stick welding, it leaves a huge plume even if the door is open...if the door is open and a fan is blowing it will get much of it out, but stick welding is not something I like to breath.

This thread prompted me to fix my garage door today...whoohoo! I'll be able to try my Primeweld out with some different rods for myself soon.

You should be able to weld 3/32" rod on 120v if your miller 211 is dual voltage.

[Poland308]

With tig you won’t get much for sparks, but still a risk. Stick or mig is a different deal, as is any grinding. The nice thing about the fume hoods (not a nice price). Might be able to find a used one. Is that there made to handle even stick welding. We use them when we’re stuck in tight spaces or confined spaces to keep the fumes down.

[JustTheDad]

I could get a harbor freight 2hp dust collector, use some left over 6" round duct to pipe fumes outside, and for under $250 I would have the same airflow as that 6k Miller fume filter. Wouldn't want to do it during a NC summer, but once the tractor shed is built, maybe I'll add something like that.

Regarding the Miller 211, I don't think it can do stick welding. That'll probably have to wait until we choose a TIG machine, but that could also be a useful skill if I need to weld on the tractor bucket or something. I'm more interested in building stuff than repairing stuff, and this is mostly for my son's education, so we'll see.

[12345678910]

It won't hurt for him to prep on his own.

Read the books, do the quizzes, prep academically so the practice makes more sense.

I really like the Wall Mountain videos.
https://www.weldingvideos.com/

They are not expensive, but you can borrow them through the library system if you don't want to buy them.
Some are on youtube

I say it pays to learn stick first before wire feed.
That way he's learned to watch the puddle and wire feed is easy.

Get a DC machine that has a crank to do adjustable current, not just a tapped tombstone
Sometimes it helps a lot to go up 10 amps, or down.

7014 to learn how to crack an arc, then 7018 for real work.


If you can swing good in person instruction privately, go for it.
Especially now with the rona restrictions, schools will be chaotic when he gets back.

He can get the booklists from the schools and get the books ahead, read them all in the summer before you go to school in the fall. Some people don't like to read, but why not get ahead if you can.

https://www.jflf.org/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=MHW

[JustTheDad]

I met with the two young guys who are starting a business and they're going to give us some lessons. GMAW first, then TIG when I get that machine. I saw their work, and they can definitely weld. It's what they do at a local company full time. I'll see on Friday how they are as teachers.

Since summers are hot and humid here in NC, I'm going to build a small welding area in the basement. I'll drywall the open ceiling, hang Fiberglass welding blankets as curtains on 3 or 4 sides, and I'll use a stove hood we got for free as an exhaust fan.

Questions on the curtains/booth. Our welding table is a 20"x30" harbor freight table and we won't be welding anything bigger than a welding cart/dog grooming arm/rolling garden seat etc in the basement.

I have 2 8x6 foot welding blankets already, and thought I could

A) Get one more 8x8 blanket to use as the curtain we'll be facing. That would make U that's 8 feet tall with an 8' wide bottom and 6' deep sides.
Or
B) I could buy 2 8'x8' blankets and use my two 6' blankets to make the booth back 10 or 11 feet wide, with 8' deep sides.
Both of those options are 3 sided welding areas.

Are either of those sufficient? There are OSB and 2x4 shelves behind where we would be facing, 10 ft from the curtain that will be the back of the booth.

[Superiorwelding]

JustTheDad,
A few thoughts. One on one private instruction is often the best training there is. As most know sometimes you can get lost in the masses in schools and paying someone to teach one on one or in a very small setting gives you the best bang for the buck. I believe that even if you didn't use our services. The important thing is find someone trustworthy and learn.

Covid has presented challenges for us as well. We stopped all our training for one on one and small classes. The only training we are still performing is for our commercial clients. As of now we are working on doing some of this training via Skype or Zoom. Quite challenging and different. This is something we can offer but I'd still recommend getting someone to hold your hand, when possible.

And thank you for the kind works guys and the recommendation. Means a lot.
-Jonathan Lewis

[Oscar]

I think it's best to stick weld outside also...in fact, I don't have a problem welding in my garage with the door closed if I'm doing tig, but not so for stick welding, it leaves a huge plume even if the door is open...if the door is open and a fan is blowing it will get much of it out, but stick welding is not something I like to breath.

My solution to stick/MIG welding inside the garage:

A folding fan-mount attached to the attic ladder frame in the ceiling. I can push it up and out of the way if I need to close the attic door, and bring it down and plug it in using an extension cord. 2300 CFM clears out the whole garage once every 45 seconds with the garage door cracked just an inch or two. The fan was $120 shipped, and the whole thing is on the opposite end of where any welding takes place, so I don't have to worry about sucking up any sparks into the attic.





It does make quite bit of noise, as drawing 2300 CFM using a 12" fan requires high RPM's. I may create a modified system with filtration since I plan to add A/C to the garage soon.

[tweake]

My solution to stick/MIG welding inside the garage:

A folding fan-mount attached to the attic ladder frame in the ceiling. I can push it up and out of the way if I need to close the attic door, and bring it down and plug it in using an extension cord. 2300 CFM clears out the whole garage once every 45 seconds with the garage door cracked just an inch or two. The fan was $120 shipped, and the whole thing is on the opposite end of where any welding takes place, so I don't have to worry about sucking up any sparks into the attic.





It does make quite bit of noise, as drawing 2300 CFM using a 12" fan requires high RPM's. I may create a modified system with filtration since I plan to add A/C to the garage soon.

thats not very good for the house.
i hope thats not pressurising the attic to much. you can do damage to the house membranes if they flap around.
i also would not want welding fumes sucked into the attic as that will come down into the house at some point. not to mention end up in the insulation.
even if you blowing out of the attic, the suction can cause problem as the house air tries to go up through the ceiling.

frankly your much better off blowing it out a door/window and having the fresh air come in through another outside door or window.
or rig the fan up to its own roof vent.

[JustTheDad]

Hi Jonathan
You probably don't remember, but six or seven weeks ago I PM'd you based on the recommendations here and you suggest I contact Michael Furick (sp?) in Charlotte. I didn't, because about the same time as I heard back from you, I found a couple of guys who are only 15 minutes away, and they're teaching us here at my home. I did set up a place to weld in the basement with a vertically mounted range hood that moves a couple hundred CFM a minute out to a window well. The setup is working very nicely, and there are a couple of pictures in my thread about choosing between the Primeweld and the HTP, where we actually ending up with a used Miller Dynasty 210.

Tweake
I'm guessing that Oscar doesn't have a sealed attic, and that the fan pushes all the fumes out the soffit and ridge vents of his attic.

[tweake]

Tweake
I'm guessing that Oscar doesn't have a sealed attic, and that the fan pushes all the fumes out the soffit and ridge vents of his attic.

which typically are not all that big, certainly not made for that flow rate.

[Oscar]

thats not very good for the house.
i hope thats not pressurising the attic to much. you can do damage to the house membranes if they flap around.
i also would not want welding fumes sucked into the attic as that will come down into the house at some point. not to mention end up in the insulation.
even if you blowing out of the attic, the suction can cause problem as the house air tries to go up through the ceiling.

frankly your much better off blowing it out a door/window and having the fresh air come in through another outside door or window.
or rig the fan up to its own roof vent.

Trust me, I've done plenty of testing, and planned this out carefully before implementing. Its not gonna blow the roof off the house.

even if you blowing out of the attic, the suction can cause problem as the house air tries to go up through the ceiling.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. My garage is well sealed-off from the rest of the house.

frankly your much better off blowing it out a door/window and having the fresh air come in through another outside door or window

You're correct about using other doors and windows for this purpose, but you're also assuming my garage has other doors and windows that can be used for this purpose. That is not the case. There is one regular door; it is closed because that leads into the house. The other door is the garage door. Thats it. As for welding fumes coming back into the house? Through the ceiling which is a solid physical barrier?? How in the world?? There is a 1200CFM attic fan that pushes air out, and 18 soffit vents. The remaining 1300 CFM divided by 18 vents means each 14"x8" vent needs to handle 62CFM. I think they can handle that.

[tweake]

thats not very good for the house.
i hope thats not pressurising the attic to much. you can do damage to the house membranes if they flap around.
i also would not want welding fumes sucked into the attic as that will come down into the house at some point. not to mention end up in the insulation.
even if you blowing out of the attic, the suction can cause problem as the house air tries to go up through the ceiling.

frankly your much better off blowing it out a door/window and having the fresh air come in through another outside door or window.
or rig the fan up to its own roof vent.

Trust me, I've done plenty of testing, and planned this out carefully before implementing. Its not gonna blow the roof off the house.

even if you blowing out of the attic, the suction can cause problem as the house air tries to go up through the ceiling.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. My garage is well sealed-off from the rest of the house.

frankly your much better off blowing it out a door/window and having the fresh air come in through another outside door or window

You're correct about using other doors and windows for this purpose, but you're also assuming my garage has other doors and windows that can be used for this purpose. That is not the case. There is one regular door; it is closed because that leads into the house. The other door is the garage door. Thats it. As for welding fumes coming back into the house? Through the ceiling which is a solid physical barrier?? How in the world?? There is a 1200CFM attic fan that pushes air out, and 18 soffit vents. The remaining 1300 CFM divided by 18 vents means each 14"x8" vent needs to handle 62CFM. I think they can handle that.

is the attic above the garage separated from the house? most places i see generally are not.
so if you suck to much out of the attic, air from inside the house will try to get up into the attic through all the small holes. (one of the reasons attic fans are a bad idea)

its not about of the roof will blow off but rather how air flows through the house. for eg an attic fan will actually suck air out of the house itself (which causes some of the issues a fan is meant to fix).
with a fan blowing into the attic you pressurising the attic (regardless of vent size) and that can push air/dirt/welding fumes into the house through all the tiny cracks/gaps of the plaster board. tho you may have sealed plastic moisture barrier installed, which is fine if its done correctly, but having fans blowing in/out can cause that barrier to flap and break the joins.
in older buildings you can see this by looking at the insulation and see that its dirty where air is flowing past/through it.

it may work for you fine, but i would not recommend it. much better to run the welding exhaust through its own separate vent. that way it cannot interfere with air flows in the attic/house.