General welding questions that dont fit in TIG, MIG, Stick, or Certification etc.
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I got the Harbor Freight plastic welder and this thing is pretty cool! The interesting part with plastics is you're using 1:1 filler material vs. welding which seems to always be mismatched like 4X43 for 606X Al as far as I can tell. I highly recommend picking up a heated air plastic welder if you don't already have one! they will pay for themselves in a single job :)

I'm fishing for any experience and suggestions for ABS, specifically motorcycle fairings since they are usually thin, curved planes. In the mean time I figured I'd share some of my experience.

Doing TIG and 3d Printing I figured it'd be a breeze but there is still a learning curve here. The two videos below are about the best I found to give advice on where to start. Like TIG you're using a filler rod but they make a speed tip that lets you feed evenly, consistently, and much faster than by hand. Unfortunately the HF models do not come with this tip but it looks like some other models so likely it's a knock of with sourceable accessories. Like TIG you also have a puddle and your melted edges to watch and like a good weld, smooth and consistent is usually perfect. The overall process is much like the lay wire technique except you're stabbing straight down. With thin stuff you do need backing to prevent burn through but a gloved hand seems to work pretty well. Depending on what you're doing you will find needs to push filler at more of an angle but like TIG, straight up and down is best.

That's where the similarities end though, oh yeah except clean, Clean, CLEAN! The key difference (besides the obvious) between plastic and TIG welding is your plastic heater angle vs TIG torch angle and travel. Basically you're working in reverse so your heater is facing opposite of the direction of travel so it can heat the part about 20% of the time and the filler about 80% of the time with a fanning motion to and from the part and filler. You're also swapping your TIG torch angle for your plastic filler angle, and your plastic heater angle with your metal filler rod angle so you're keeping your plastic heater about like 45-20 degrees while the filler sits at at 90 degree angle to usually at most 60.
After all this TIG'in, let me tell you this will mess you up because it feels like you're TIG'in till you start!

When cleaning plastic it's best to scrape the material off rather than sand it since the dust will complicate the weld and plastic is notorious for trapping that stuff since it pits easily. Similar to metal but much more pronounced. Don't grind it either it will melt quickly then you're repairing more ;) So an exacto, razor blade, or some fancy scraper/cutting/chisel tools are best. MEK, Methyl Ethyl Ketone 9 is the best stuff you can post/pre clean plastic with but variations of alcohol usually work well too. Soap is just fine so long as you rinse it.

One thing you don't ever do with ABS is use Acetone! It is acid to ABS and will liquefy it with enough Acetone. Now you can use acetone for light welding, joining, since it does evaporate quickly so you could use it to help with basic tack welds but it is gooey, you must let it dry, and it will destroy your liver if you come in contact with just your skin too much. Yep it's what used in that stuff ladies use to clean nail polish off with their bare hands too.... Acetone is good for smoothing down parts and if you're smart/safe you can even steam an ABS part with Acetone to give them a smooth, glossy finish. Be careful though since you can burn or kill yourself and seriously damage some property.

One other neat thing about plastic welding that does differ from TIG is tacking. There's curvy rocking chair base lookin tip for this. Unlike TIG, you get to run a full length for a tack if you want to which is performing an autogenous weld. Like TIG though, if you're going to do a filler weld, you should tack first but tacks are generally more important to plastic then TIG.

So how do you use that weird tacking tip? You hold the plastic heater at around 60-80 degrees with the point of the tip touching into the seem you're going to weld lightly then you drag the plastic heater in the opposite direction the tip points at along your seem. It's really fun when you got a spidery crack. The key thing to remember, do not put the opening port where the air first comes out against the part so the tip is pointing up otherwise you're in for a mess especially with a tack since usually you're working at your thinnest point or a gap so you will melt through.

One of the best parts about plastic welding is you don't really need a lot if any safety equipment. Usually safety glasses are recommended and gloves certainly make things easier and you can handle. Gloves allow you to also mold your parts of hold them in place and with most thermoplastics like ABS, it's pretty easy with a pair of decent mechanics/welding gloves. You can also smooth out plastic to an extent by heating it with your plastic welder or a heat gun too so less need to grind/sand :)

Even if you don't do 3d printing, the filament options are quite extensive and with a lil heat gun and a bit of patience you can straighten the rolled filament into rods that would mimic TIG welding. If you do 3d printing then now you've got another use (if you're not recycling) for all those failed parts. You should have misprints, random shapes, mesh grids, and all sorts of interesting things to use to repair things with. You can even print replacement pieces to weld into your broken part. You could even build a plastic encasement and then plastic weld it around a metal project of sorts. The imagine is the limit especially if you can weld metals and plastics :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVr8wHIcgCo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvV9a3lEe2g
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I welded Porsche fuel tanks with one of these! I found it to be quite a bitch to get done.

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Welding plastic is quite fun, but can also be frustrating and messy. Good for repairs to car/bike/truck parts like bumpers, headlight brackets, etc.

Only thing to keep an eye out for when platic welding is similar to the metal welding 'HAZ'. (next to the plethora of plastics out there.. some of which are definitely 'non weldable' too! ;) )

Under heat the base material can evaporate out some of it's compounds which help to keep it pliable/flexible, so the HAZ in plastic welds can end up being more brittle than the rest.

Depends a lot on the type of plastic (ABS, PE, PP) how affected it is and it can also dictate if a hot-hair style 'gun' is usable or you need to use a contact-based welder that's more like a big soldering iron.

Also a lot of plate or sheet construction plastic materials are often reinforced with glass fibre or glass beads which the weld seam tends to lack so they are more ductile/flexible. You can add some though during the welding process or make sure that the design of any structure does not rely on welds being as stiff as the parent material (eg. using bracing, fillets, etc.)

Chemical welding can also be a very good option for some plastics if your fitup is very good and you don't need the filler to help get gaps down/filled. MEK (Methyl Ethyl Ketone) is a great solvent that will dissolve ABS which will then re-solify as the MEK evaporates off. By using very small amounts you can basically chemically 'melt' the ABS, press pieces together, wait for the MEK to evaporate and it has fused to 1 piece.

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Regarding the question about motorcycle ABS fairings, if you have all the pieces and they fit together tightly, try just using a little ABS pipe cement and pasting them back together with that.

I had a chunk of fairing that broke off a couple of pieces around the windshield, and found it was very easy to reassemble using just a thin smear of cement and then a sharp razor blade to skim off the bit that squeezed out on the front.

Adding a bit of reinforcement on the back couldn't hurt, but I didn't and had no further issues in the broken area.
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Sam! Yeah this was not fancy at first. I did find my HF at 4 with the bent, not curved tip was best for ABS. The manual shows a huge jump between 3 and 4 for the curve but a gentle difference for the bent tip. It comes out at 360F and it does wonderful. 390F is the temp for 4 with the curve and it bubbled fast. I was using 3mm 3d filament I had straightened out too but I also used some larger bar like pieces I had and those melted right in too. I assure you it's easier than TIG if you can remember it's all backwards which usually takes a few seconds to think about before you start ;)

Arno! You've always got some super geek advice! I bet we'd get along just fine :) Your insight is always highly appreciated and you're awesome for sharing :)

Allen! Solvents are pretty good but with all my years of working with plastics and fixing various stuff including my bike after a few wrecks, I gotta say a hot air plastic welder is totally the ticket! There's some better ones out there than the HF for sure and it's been around for many years but the tools haven't changed really at all. Very worth while and as long as you have like plastics, you've got welding filler/material.

I've done all sorts of body work on my bike before but I really wish I had this thing when I started. You don't have to have mounds of shit that end up screwing up some bolt or body alignment and it's not the nasty pink or goop. Much more precision and it's a true bond. There is a learning curve but it's quick and easy so long as you heat mostly the rod, and a bit on the part with the 20/80 fanning rule.
I fixed all the broken little tabs that goop would have been a bitch to work with but these are strong, I can pick up the entire front headlight assembly of an R6 with a lil tab. I used some random 3d printed pieces I trimmed to fix to fix some missing chunks which worked out pretty well since I could use a heat gun to gently mold it to the same I wanted, trim it, then weld it.

For fun I asked the girl if she'd like some teeth on the front of the bike. After I showed her what they'd look like she was all for it and so for the fun of welding she's got a pretty vicious lookin bike now! Surely it added 10 HP too ;)
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Not sure why I keep looking at this thread because I really have no interest in welding plastic.
But now we just hit paydirt.
That ^^^ looks F@$!#/g AWESOME!!!!!!!
In my estimation it may have added another 25hp. Time for a dyno check.
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Rambo! Thanks man! It's not the prettiest but each weld showed blatant progression. I'd bet within another day I'd be layin down perfect beads because I already had some damn near perfect ones. Edge work isn't hard either. And yes, when we hit the track again, she'll have some more bite :D

I think if you run any kind of shop work whether from your garage or a real shop, you can't go wrong with these things. You've got plenty of welding material around from all the other broken pieces of ABS you've got layin around... Especially if you work with rec vehicles like quads n dirt bikes, and all those other new spin offs. Usually you don't care about the finish either so long as your fender is back in place to be broken again, oh and it didn't cost $200 ;)
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Well, the reason I wasn't interested in plastic welding is because I've watched way too many Amigos weld TPO when I was their driver on a commercial roofing repair crew. That's some really hot, suck-ass work!
Now that you're making it look so glamorous.......I might have to give it a chance.
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Had to look up TPO but that looks kinda neat. This one place says they're product has excellent welding properties which I thought was kinda funny. The bottom pic on the page showed this mansion built out of the stuff which I'm sure wasn't a fun welding task.... I never had an interest in it either but I regret that now. I can pick up the whole head assembly which weighs about 10 lbs with the tip of the smaller tooth too and with more of a weld bead than a goo pile, it has significantly more strength than the goop, with like 80-90% less material.

Costed me $70 for the thing and after welding in some scrap ABS that I have to build back the missing portions of the fairings and stays, then weld in all the cracks, I saved my girl over $300 in parts. And no goop! It's a really tight fit bike so goop could make more problems. So yeah it really paid for itself in the first job, not to mention the bad ass upgrade that truly makes her bike a one of a kind. I'm also pretty sure I've spent over 100 in Bondo, JB Weld, and plastic weld goos at this point in life too ;)

My mirrors on my bike broke too, but I gotta make a rod and socket since they made them with just an ABS only shaft/socket BUT I can now lathe out the socket, metal weld the socket to the metal post for the mirror and a bit more shaft to extend it out, 3d print out an ABS enclosure for it all that's split in half, then plastic weld the enclosure to wrap it all up. Could even add some curves and bends if I wanted too! Just a random thought that combines multiple processes :)
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Damn bro!
You sound like a kid in a candy store. Glad you're having so much fun with it. I can't remember the last time I saw so many possibilities in something. It does seem to have greatly expanded your capabilities.
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Thanks man! I fixed one of those tiny plastic wire clips that always snap the first time you open them to release the wires. Another $8 + shipping saved :D I used my Portasol butane soldering iron with the heat tip to do that since it's so small and has less air CFM. Worked very well and it's flexible again :)
One thing you truly can never have enough of in this life is SkillZ! Even n00b to novice is fine because they can always be refined as needed.

Finally the last important things I didn't mention was a bit more expansion on the 80/20 for heating filler/part as you lay your bead down or melt whatever you found for filler. It does change slightly depending on the thickness of filler and work but still you're doing a small area so a 70 on part to 30 on filler can help sometimes but always start with 80/20.
The other would be what you're watching for. ABS and most plastics get a wet shiny sheen to them as they hit a good melting temp. Once they bubble you've overheated it. You're looking for a glassy appearance about 1-2x the width of your bead on either side of your bead. Really 1x is about best. You're also looking for your filler to do the same and you want to heat you filler first and then lay into it. If your filler is really thin then you may just want to start your filler right on the part and then weld on. If your filler is exceptionally thin, and your part is kinda thick, you might want to move to more a 50/50 heating but this is something you'll really only understand as you learn since plastic doesn't come in standard thicknesses and shapes like metal so there's not really general averages except the amount of heat that comes from the welder since that's fairly universal for all thickness; it's just material specific.
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Man,
I jist paid $40 for this piece of dung about two weeks ago and its already leaking around the top edge. Its a bleeder valve for a 2000 dodge intrepid and it's a real bitch to change out, just like everything else on that lemon of a car. Its leaking around the top edge.....ever so slightly, directly in front of the bolt on the right side as evidenced by that white crusty crap. That's the reason why I changed out the last one which was leaking in front of the bolt on the left side. Is this a good candidate for welding with a soldering iron? If so then what do I use for filler? I'm worried that it's gonna blow out while I'm rolling down the road. These things are plastic, made in chineeze garbage. It's under 15 lbs of pressure before the radiator cap sends coolant to the overflow bottle. I just noticed this little gremlin today.
Also this is the only soldering iron that i have to work with. I'm poor until I find another job. If worse comes to worse then I can always put the other one back on. This car is a damn sight impossible to work on while on the side of the road and requires all manner of specialty tools and techniques. It's probably the biggest pain in the ass and worse design for an internal combustion engine in the history of automobile manufacturing.
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Raymond
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All cars come with Gremlins, it's just a question of how many and how long will they wait to come out of hibernation ;)

That's definitely ABS so it should be a good candidate for the task. The real question is where is it leaking from. If it's coming out from the bolt then that tells me it's the mating surface from the top to the bottom piece that has some warpage or perhaps some of that scale built up underneath it allowing water from the inside portion of the bolt to leak through. Did you use black Permatex on it? If so did you goop it or use a thin layer because gooping usually causes leaks due to uneven distribution and too much gap. If you can see there's a layer but you can still see the surface not just pure black goop, then you've done it right. It's not quite like the diff cover of a big truck axle which you should still use a thin layer on ;)

Welding over just the bolt would be about the same as using some goop on it but both will likely leak soon. If you have the last one then you might be best taking it apart then comparing them and also validate that you have a good mating surface. From here you can decide which piece and where to weld because you may need to do some build up on the inside to shave it down. I think the soldering iron will be difficult if you're doing build up of a flat surface though since you're likely going to bubble it and distort it more.

If you have a butane torch, you can try to modify it by adding a length of tube and a couple sink aerator screens to diffuse the flame so you're just pushing out hot air/gas. Careful here though, don't need to blow those money makers off your wrists. You might even be able to take a hair dryer and with some tubing/flashing/foil? :D reduce the hot end to a smaller size. Less than 1/4 would be the goal, and I think 1/8 is probably spot on. Again, be careful because the back pressure may be too much and you only want to use the low blower high heat setting.

ABS can't handle over 500F directly very well. You need to be around 350F to 450F. I'm welding at 350-360F and 3d printing which is extruding ABS at 456F. 456F is basically your max because around 460F it begins to cook and anything higher is unstable plus will likely be brittle since you cooked the natural oils out.

If you have some other ABS laying around then you can use that as filler. If you don't and since you don't like your car much, you can find some portion of a plastic trim panel that you can take a strip off. Just make sure you clean that strip off. You can also go to goodwill and find the something made of ABS for a $1 and sacrifice that. Just go to the car/electronic section since most of that stuff will be ABS. Once you have your donor, just razor blade off a strip hopefully the length of your full weld plus an inch or two. You'll want to practice this whole process on your donor first too especially since you're going the soldering iron route.

You'll need a razor blade so you can shave off a bit of your problem area to expose fresh ABS. Like 1/4 of a mm is plenty. If it's a clean black or if it's white then you've shaved enough i.e. not dirty.

To keep that soldering iron tip "clean" (you need to tin it man! :D I just learned how to do this after about 15 years of soldering... ) you might consider using some Al foil folded over a couple times and use it as a drag pad for the soldering tip on the plastic or you can use it to cover the tip. This might help with smoothing out and building up that flat surface with the soldering iron.

If that's just a bleeder valve for the radiator itself and you're willing to risk making that part a permanent piece of your radiator then you can weld those seems together. If you do that you'll want to take it apart and clean things up but then you can "tack weld" the pieces together first. With plastic welding, tacking is still not using filler but you're running a continuous run along the entire area you plan to weld. The welding aspect is when you add filler. So if you tacked it up (that Al foil might help give you a good smooth line here too and you might even consider just doing only a layer of the foil around the welding area rather than the drag pad or covering the tip) then it's just time to add filler. If you start from the back of the left to the front then to the back of the right, you'll probably hold the soldering iron in your right hand and filler in your left since you have to heat the front of your welding path and the filler itself. If you want to go the opposite direction, then you're gonna need to switch hands. You can switch hands half way through and this is where plastic welding is cool because you have the time to do it unlike real welding where usually you just have to stop where here you can swap and keep running.

You're going to push as straight down with your filler as you can and since you're not using heated air, again I think that foil tip might help because you need to be able to mostly heat your filler, which is difficult with soldering iron's pressure pushing it the opposite direction you want to weld in while you're trying to push your filler down. I'm guessing a 45 degree angle is what you'll want for the heat and almost always a 90 degree for the filler. So try to move that tip back and forth from your weld path and your filler and it should weld.
If you have a friend or some creative way to prop a hair dryer to face your welding area, it will help a lot and the closer the better.
Plastic will melt with heat but the reason a hot air based plastic welder works better than a heated piece of metal is the air acts like the arc force for arc welding where it creates the pressure to create penetration and force the weld. Shaken not stirred ;) In this case you're replacing that air pressure with physical pressure but much like blowing 150 degree wind in your face vs. having a 150 degree piece of metal put to your face, the air has a more even distribution, not as focused like the metal tip so the air heats a larger area vs. the metal which is gonna leave one nasty focused burn. This will translate into valleys and bubbles for plastic.
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Last thing... You could also just try pure Acetone but again you'll be pulling it apart and cleaning it up. Then just get both sides wet with Acetone, slap em together and bolt them down quick. That'll be very low strength but the full surface weld might be enough. I think I even saw a video around where a guy fixed a similar part using Acetone. Didn't watch it since I know the process but might be worth while for you to youtube too.
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entity-unknown wrote:All cars come with Gremlins, it's just a question of how many and how long will they wait to come out of hibernation ;)
At least the late AMC had the honesty to actually name a car "Gremlin"... :lol:

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This piece mounts directly to the top side of the engine block. Top radiator hose is piped into it. The bolts have nothing to do with the leak. The problem is that it is molded in two pieces.....the body and a top cover similar to an AK47 receiver. Not sure how the top cover is attached but I don't believe that it is welded, probably some type of glue (made in chineeze crapola). The leaks are coming from the edge of the top cover because this is the weak point.
Here are some photos of the old piece. It looks like I can probably bond these two pieces together without filler since there is so much material to work with, then run some black RTV sealant around the inside. That top cover is 1/8" thick.
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Side view. That big gap between the top cover and the body (just below my finger) is where they both developed leaks. $40 for this junk. That white crap in the crack is dried antifreeze.
Side view. That big gap between the top cover and the body (just below my finger) is where they both developed leaks. $40 for this junk. That white crap in the crack is dried antifreeze.
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Where the leak is coming from. You can see how it has been escaping from the top cover due to a really crappy bond.
Where the leak is coming from. You can see how it has been escaping from the top cover due to a really crappy bond.
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Bottom view where the gaskets seat.
Bottom view where the gaskets seat.
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Otto Nobedder wrote:
entity-unknown wrote:All cars come with Gremlins, it's just a question of how many and how long will they wait to come out of hibernation ;)
At least the late AMC had the honesty to actually name a car "Gremlin"... :lol:

Steve S
Wayne and Garth had a stretch Pacer. Isn't that about the same thing as a Gremlin?
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Yeah I didn't think the bolt was the problem, just the underside of the part where they mate at the bolt point. I think you got the right idea with the tack weld all around and some RTV. I'd brass/nylon wire brush all that white stuff out of there too since that will gap your gasket and cause the leak. After that, a thin layer of RTV on those gaskets and you should be ready to rock n roll (n fix the next thing on your list ;)
In a pinch, you could use some WD-40 to and a papertowel to clean that stuff out since I'm sure you've got both. A tooth pick will help get the crap outta the corners of the gasket seats as well if that brass/nylon wire brush isn't hand. Don't do anything more coarse.
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The halves of that part were either welded ultrasonically or with RF, with poor quality control. ABS does not solvent-weld well in tension, though it does quite well in shear. I agree this is a candidate for welding.

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Ultrasonic plastic welding is pretty neat! I saw that a while back. They're responsible for those PITA packages like the ones they put knives in that requires a knife, some wit, and possibly some gauze to open. Also that's how your tooth paste tube is pressed at the end.
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There are plastic welding machines that are equall to MIG welders in size. They use compressed air or a tank of nitrogen. If you own one get a proper training video. It is for automotive collision work or autobody.
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