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Mig Vs Stck for project???????

General welding questions that dont fit in TIG, MIG, Stick, or Certification etc.

Re: Mig Vs Stck for project???????

Postby Poland308 » Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:38 pm

Dito!
Mig or stick. Get a good solid weld. 3/16 is more than enough thickness for what your doing and thin enough that either stick or mig will get you full penetration.
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Re: Mig Vs Stck for project???????

Postby ryanjames170 » Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:59 pm

i will post this.. on top of what others have said..

if you do most all of your welding with MIG and do not do much stick welding.. MIG weld it..

If i was building something like that i would Stick weld it! why because i do more stick welding then MIG welding.. i can usaly run a few practice welds on scrap and get myself right where i need to be with stick but with MIG it takes me a good day to get the feel for it again.. i also know the settings faily well for my machine and know what it dose and dose not do well. and im sure you would feel the same about your MIG machine.. basically if you look at a stick welder and are not overly sure what amperage and rod you should be running with what your planning to do but have a prety good idea what your settings need to be on your MIG welder.. just MIG weld it.

how ever if stick welding interests you for future projects i would say start burning some rods and getting good at it.. as some have said sick welding has uses especially out door welding.. this is part of why they still stick weld on pipelines.. how ever flux core is another option how ever if you have not welded with it much i wouldn't use it.
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Re: Mig Vs Stck for project???????

Postby Otto Nobedder » Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:46 am

Amazing, isn't it, how slow this forum seems at times, and then three or four responses pop up on top of each other.

If this were my personal project, I'd stick weld it, bevels and open roots, 6010 and 7018. However, I have a load of experience with this. In the OP's position, he has the right equipment to MIG weld it, and do it well. I would suggest beveling the arms where they meet the upright, and holding a gap, for full penetration, but there's no reason a sound MIG weld won't do this job safely, pending the operator's ability.

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Re: Mig Vs Stck for project???????

Postby homeboy » Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:08 am

As to the method of welding I am not proficient in the various methods described but with each connection having aprox. 3ft of weld any competant welder should be able able to glue this together. The weight itself is negligible but the issue is lateral loads "wind -vehicle strikes whatever" I totally agree with Noddybrian that the base and connection are critical. Cover your your butt -do any local building code regulations apply -signage-setbacks etc. I f so they may require engineered drawings and spec's . You can go for a tour and see how other similar free standing structures are anchored. In Ontario Canada we have a standard blanket building code but each municipality can have additional bylaws. When in construction I covered a lot of municipalities and it was a constant job to keep up with the rules. Good luck :ugeek:
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Re: Mig Vs Stck for project???????

Postby thatoneguy » Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:37 pm

Artie F. Emm wrote:First, good on ya for using your skills to make this for your church! I like the square tube turned 45* idea.

As to which process, either way you're going to want full penetration welds. It may turn out that the place you weld it in drives that decision: outside in the wind? Stick. Back at the shop in ideal conditions? MIG. But now may *not* be the time to experiment with a new process like dual shield: the final exam is not the time to learn the material.

Don't get me wrong, I'm totally with you: learning, experimenting, figuring it out is the fun and compelling part of any project. I get it! But as they say over on WW, the last thing you want to do is injure any nuns/widows/orphans/puppies because the welds on your cross failed.

That said, and with safety and longevity in mind, I don't think you can over-think this. I did some checking, and found that 8" square tube in 3/16 wall is 19.63 pounds per foot. If the vertical is 12 feet and the "arms" are 6 feet, your cross could weigh as much as 350 pounds. Where and how will this be mounted?

The way you design it can affect the overall weight and the amount of stress your welds endure. For instance, you might start with a 12 ft. vertical and weld the "arm" members to each side. Gravity will be pulling on those welds forever and ever amen, and those stresses will increase every time the kids from the youth group climb up on your cross. (Count on that, btw!) On the other hand, you might start with a 8 foot 4 inch vertical, and lay a single 6 foot horizontal member on top of that. That way gravity is pressing the horizontal down onto the upright, and your welds are holding it together rather than keeping it from falling apart. Finish with a 3 foot "INRI" top part of the cross. (And cap the exposed ends to prevent internal rust and bird nesting.)

How's that for preaching to the welders?! Sorry if you knew all that already. Good luck with your project, post up some pics!




As for the arms I was already planning on making the vertical piece the part that is split and just laying the horizontal into the vertical pieces's notch. And I will be capping the ends. Gonna be painting it with POR15 topcoat as well to prevent rust even more!
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Re: Mig Vs Stck for project???????

Postby thatoneguy » Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:39 pm

noddybrian wrote:It worries me slightly the fact your asking this as it implies an experience level on the low side considering the weight & potential of injury should this thing fail in strong winds or such like - but despite some slightly off hand comments from our more jovial regulars if the church is happy for you to do this & they accept responsibility then lets try for some more helpful comments - Mig is fine if using sufficient power & a 275 on that material thickness is just fine - as to spray or short circuit that is very open ended as the wire thickness & gas mix has a great influence on the voltage this changes - if you can support the cross so all your welds are flat ( 1G ) then using spray is suitable - if you cannot & must weld to some degree in position especially when wrapping the corners then keep with short circuit - if you can get some similar scrap material to practice on maybe use the Miller welding website for baseline settings & just do some mock up joints & test them - if you can prep to allow a near full thickness V prep this is by far the best - if it's not possible then your question of Mig or Stick is valid as the next best option would likely be burn the hottest root pass you can with a cellulose rod as Mig is renowned for poor root penetration then grind back clean & fill with the Mig - do plenty of passes so there is adequate leg length to spread the load onto the limited wall thickness to reduce the chance of fatigue cracks - dual shield will work but is not generally used or recommended at this thickness - biggest question I'd have is not so much the cross part itself as how is this fixed down ? are you welding to a base plate or is it to be set in concrete in the ground - either way I think you need a signed waiver that you cannot be held responsible in the event of failure either now - next hurricane of 20 years time after no inspection / maintenance & the box rots off at the ground - these jobs while taken on with good intent can bite you - once a steel structure is in a public space / building it really needs to be drawn up by an engineer with - built to a spec & signed off by a qualified inspector due to our modern society - others may have different views & hopefully others will post with more direct advice on the pure welding aspects of your question - good luck however you proceed.



Ok read the original post again but with emphasis on CURIOUS. Lol. While this project does have structural critical aspects to it, the welds themselves are nothing crazy. I asked my questions because I am wanting to learn more of the in-depth metallurgical side of this. Tensile strengths, filler metals, etc... This is gonna sound somewhat arrogant, but I have more than enough experience and education for a project like this.
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Re: Mig Vs Stck for project???????

Postby thatoneguy » Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:43 pm

And I guess I could have clarified a bit better on my original post... I have the stick and MIG experience to do either. And I have the equipment and machinery for welding and/or beveling if I decide to go that route. Along with the experience and education. My curiosity was more along the metallurgical side (for lack of a better way to describe it). I wanted to know more about tensile strengths, fillers, what kinds of what hold up better for stress flexing, weather, etc...
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Re: Mig Vs Stck for project???????

Postby thatoneguy » Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:52 pm

Oscar wrote:Why not complicate things even more? TIG the thing, but don't make it easy---use an exotic filler rod like Inconel or Hastelloy. You can never be too sure!! Oh, and make sure you get a good back-purge going. :lol:



I actually have thought of using this opportunity to practice my Walking The Cup! I think I'm going to TIG weld the end caps.
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Re: Mig Vs Stck for project???????

Postby Farmwelding » Sun Mar 05, 2017 10:01 pm

thatoneguy wrote:
Oscar wrote:Why not complicate things even more? TIG the thing, but don't make it easy---use an exotic filler rod like Inconel or Hastelloy. You can never be too sure!! Oh, and make sure you get a good back-purge going. :lol:



I actually have thought of using this opportunity to practice my Walking The Cup! I think I'm going to TIG weld the end caps.

That's a good plan on the end caps. In bot a metallurgy expert or haven't had enough hood time and destructive time to make a solid opinion. Based on what I do know though, short circuit mig generally has less penetration and more issues like lack of fusion than most other processes. Sick provides good penetration along with spray transfer and flux core. But if you haven't run flux core don't do it in this.
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Re: Mig Vs Stck for project???????

Postby thatoneguy » Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:18 am

Farmwelding wrote:
thatoneguy wrote:
Oscar wrote:Why not complicate things even more? TIG the thing, but don't make it easy---use an exotic filler rod like Inconel or Hastelloy. You can never be too sure!! Oh, and make sure you get a good back-purge going. :lol:



I actually have thought of using this opportunity to practice my Walking The Cup! I think I'm going to TIG weld the end caps.

That's a good plan on the end caps. In bot a metallurgy expert or haven't had enough hood time and destructive time to make a solid opinion. Based on what I do know though, short circuit mig generally has less penetration and more issues like lack of fusion than most other processes. Sick provides good penetration along with spray transfer and flux core. But if you haven't run flux core don't do it in this.



Ya that is true. But their are ways to make sure that MIG does penetrate... Such as staying on the leading edge of the puddle, welding uphill, etc... I have experience with spray arc and gasless flux core but not dual shield. I don't know I think it is just going to boil down to whatever I feel like doing at the time.
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