[PeteM]

PeteM - that looks awesome!! ...and huge!

Thanks! Unfortunately, thats my mug looking at you and ruining the photo

That was a doozie. It was built with a quarter of it to be removed for transport, otherwise it wouldn't fit under overpasses. Its twin is in the background, and was all part of a set for a church in southern Illinois.

[Poland308]

Nice work!

All that math makes things like rolling offsets and evenly spaced offsets posible. Especially if your not able to use standard angle like 90.45.or 22. Because then you have to figure out what angle of fitting to make. Or if you need to lay out a saddle to be cut in on different sizes of pipe. Does it need to come straight in or are you attaching at an angle? Even basic math is needed to figure tank weight and volume. Hard to drain a pipe and catch the contents if you don't know how many gallons or cubic ft of material are inside. Can't safely rig and crane pipe in to a job site unless you know what it weighs. All big rigging jobs come down to figuring weight and angles of attached rigging. This affects how much stress your rigging will see. Look up EPRI rigging. It's life and death. Not to mention part of any good paying welding job. And even in an average job will separate employees. Often knowledge like this, and it's use can be the reason one person gets layed off and on unemployment, and the other one works steady.

[exnailpounder]

Nice work!

All that math makes things like rolling offsets and evenly spaced offsets posible. Especially if your not able to use standard angle like 90.45.or 22. Because then you have to figure out what angle of fitting to make. Or if you need to lay out a saddle to be cut in on different sizes of pipe. Does it need to come straight in or are you attaching at an angle? Even basic math is needed to figure tank weight and volume. Hard to drain a pipe and catch the contents if you don't know how many gallons or cubic ft of material are inside. Can't safely rig and crane pipe in to a job site unless you know what it weighs. All big rigging jobs come down to figuring weight and angles of attached rigging. This affects how much stress your rigging will see. Look up EPRI rigging. It's life and death. Not to mention part of any good paying welding job. And even in an average job will separate employees. Often knowledge like this, and it's use can be the reason one person gets layed off and on unemployment, and the other one works steady.

I have a few friends that are boilermakers and fitters that need to use their fingers to count to ten, that make stupid crazy money. The only math my one friend knows is how many beers he can drink at night and make a fit-for-duty test in the morning. They may teach math skills in welding courses but the real brain work is left to the welding/structural engineers who tell the rod burners what to do. I have taken classes through my hall that involve critical safety issues and they give a test at the end...one of those tests that you can't flunk and then they hand you a cert card and send you out to work. It's been 35 years since Highschool and I have never used algebra one time to solve a problem. Common sense is way more of a skill.

[Farmwelding]

What kind of work do you do that allows you to not do math? Not a lot of triangles I suppose. I had about two pages worth of math for a practice tube coping project and then my stool build. Figure out the length to cut the pipe and then what to cope it to and having to add up all the measurements to show we could apply math. The class was far off from any math class but I will tell you it was the most educational math "course" I've ever done. Then figuring out after you coped it how long the end of the pipe was and learning to use 1.414 and .707. And then figuring out 30 degrees for all of that and then we had to make a jig. I don't know what work you can do in the welding and fabrication world without some math or algebra like stuff- trig counts if you ask me.

[PeteM]

What kind of work do you do that allows you to not do math? Not a lot of triangles I suppose.
I don't know what work you can do in the welding and fabrication world without some math or algebra like stuff- trig counts if you ask me.

I've done entire frames like the one in the photo with a piece of string and a reference square just on a bet as an exercise in pure geometry, or just the relationships of shapes in reference to each other. Not that I'd recommend it without becoming very familiar with the Arc-Chord Theorem.

That was going about 1500 year old school.

Odd little tidbit- A lot of architectural designs and proportions are still based on the golden ratio.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio

(I'll learn how to actually post links at some point)

[exnailpounder]

What kind of work do you do that allows you to not do math? Not a lot of triangles I suppose.
I don't know what work you can do in the welding and fabrication world without some math or algebra like stuff- trig counts if you ask me.

I've done entire frames like the one in the photo with a piece of string and a reference square just on a bet as an exercise in pure geometry, or just the relationships of shapes in reference to each other. Not that I'd recommend it without becoming very familiar with the Arc-Chord Theorem.

That was going about 1500 year old school.

Odd little tidbit- A lot of architectural designs and proportions are still based on the golden ratio.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio


My 10 year old son taught me how to post a link

[PeteM]

What kind of work do you do that allows you to not do math? Not a lot of triangles I suppose.
I don't know what work you can do in the welding and fabrication world without some math or algebra like stuff- trig counts if you ask me.

I've done entire frames like the one in the photo with a piece of string and a reference square just on a bet as an exercise in pure geometry, or just the relationships of shapes in reference to each other. Not that I'd recommend it without becoming very familiar with the Arc-Chord Theorem.

That was going about 1500 year old school.

Odd little tidbit- A lot of architectural designs and proportions are still based on the golden ratio.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio


My 10 year old son taught me how to post a link

I'll get it at some point, but my kid is only 4, so I hope you guys are patient.

[Poland308]

Not saying it isn't valuable it's just that I most likely won't be using it unless I go work for the AWS and write papers like you shared with us. Keep sharing i may as well use the math for something. Every knf once in awhile it may be useful

What kind of work do you do that allows you to not do math? Not a lot of triangles I suppose. I had about two pages worth of math for a practice tube coping project and then my stool build. Figure out the length to cut the pipe and then what to cope it to and having to add up all the measurements to show we could apply math. The class was far off from any math class but I will tell you it was the most educational math "course" I've ever done. Then figuring out after you coped it how long the end of the pipe was and learning to use 1.414 and .707. And then figuring out 30 degrees for all of that and then we had to make a jig. I don't know what work you can do in the welding and fabrication world without some math or algebra like stuff- trig counts if you ask me.

???

[Farmwelding]

1st post that is quoted-taking about advanced calculus you know finding slopes of curves and areas and rates of changes in graphs-not commonly every day used in the field of welding
2nd post-trigonometry, geometry, algebra, basic arithmetic-used everyday in the field

Both have their place it is just based on my knowledge we as fabricators and welders tend to stay more on the side of trogonometry and geometry since we deal with measurements and shapes that are covered in these studies, but we don't study the instantaneous rate of change or the slope of a circle at a certain point. We only care about diameter, circumference, area and angles for the most part.

Math is important for this I am well aware. Just don't see calculus being used anywhere near as often as geometry or algebra.

Clear that up Poland
Of course if someone wants to show me where it is used I would be delighted to hear about it!

[Poland308]

Take a look at laying out a 2 inch pipe saddled onto an 18 inch pipe. 2 inch pipe needs to be at 19 deg to the 18 inch pipe. And the 18 inch pipe is horizontal but your 2 inch needs to come off at 6 o'clock and roll over for an even parallel run. Figure out how to lay it out on the radius. Not everything can be held up and fit in place. You'll waste a lot of time going up in a lift to see if it fits yet and then come back down to grind a little more.

[MinnesotaDave]

1st post that is quoted-taking about advanced calculus you know finding slopes of curves and areas and rates of changes in graphs-not commonly every day used in the field of welding
2nd post-trigonometry, geometry, algebra, basic arithmetic-used everyday in the field

Both have their place it is just based on my knowledge we as fabricators and welders tend to stay more on the side of trogonometry and geometry since we deal with measurements and shapes that are covered in these studies, but we don't study the instantaneous rate of change or the slope of a circle at a certain point. We only care about diameter, circumference, area and angles for the most part.

Math is important for this I am well aware. Just don't see calculus being used anywhere near as often as geometry or algebra.

Clear that up Poland
Of course if someone wants to show me where it is used I would be delighted to hear about it!

Just because you are unaware of the uses does not mean others should bother explaining them all to you.

The argument of "I don't see the use so it must not be there" is myopic and tiresome.

[PeteM]

Of course if someone wants to show me where it is used I would be delighted to hear about it!

I can do this all day! (not really, but at least this one last time)

Here's a real world problem-

Had to do a restoration on a four point (british) arch for a restoration in which the building had shifted and distorted the original frame. To do this, we had to develop the equation of the circle for the upper corners, the one for the laterals that make the arch, and find all of the points of intersection between the vertices and segments of circles.

So starting with the height and width, using the arc chord theorem to develop the circles, and creating a system of equations to find the points of intersection for all of the above, you can end up with a work of art that sits in the national registry of historical buildings.

Sincerely Farmwelding, this stuff (maths, algebra, trig, calc) is something you can take as far as you want, but you have to have it to take it there.

[Farmwelding]

So I've thought and read and re-read and this is what I have come to realize/beleive. So you cam do a lot of the math with more basic math (geometry, trig, algebra) but there are a few exclusions and sometimes it is simpler if you know the math to use a more advanced form or it may be more accurate. With that circle formula Pete, I don't know if it would help at all but I thought of a website we used in pre calc. Desmos graphing calculator-you can put a picture on there center it and then plot points and develop an equation. Maybe it isn't accurate enough or won't work because it is out of porportion- just a thought.

[GreinTime]

Not saying it isn't valuable it's just that I most likely won't be using it unless I go work for the AWS and write papers like you shared with us. Keep sharing i may as well use the math for something. Every knf once in awhile it may be useful

Ok. That paper was written by a scientist at Bettis Nuclear Laboratory, which is right down the street from me. I've even worked with a few guys that have welded there and at places like Holtech (look them up.)

That work is no joke and they don't accept jokers. You need to prove that you have the smarts and are able to do the mental gymnastics required to understand the importance of the equipment that is being built. Aside from any number of absolutely pristine weld tests you need to complete you are also subject to a written exam. There's going to be some math on it. You better be able to do it, what ever it may be.

Apparently I've only ever met the washouts from Holtec [FACE WITH TEARS OF JOY] I haven't met a single one that could weld anything but pipe, and even that was Debatable!

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

[PeteM]

So I've thought and read and re-read and this is what I have come to realize/beleive. So you cam do a lot of the math with more basic math (geometry, trig, algebra) but there are a few exclusions and sometimes it is simpler if you know the math to use a more advanced form or it may be more accurate. With that circle formula Pete, I don't know if it would help at all but I thought of a website we used in pre calc. Desmos graphing calculator-you can put a picture on there center it and then plot points and develop an equation. Maybe it isn't accurate enough or won't work because it is out of porportion- just a thought.

I just use a graphing calculator. Ti-98 I think. It fits in my toolbox and doesn't need wi-fi. You can do a ton of stuff with those, like create equations for multiple hole patterns, put them on the table function and lay out a bunch of beams- the uses are endless.

Anyways, point of that was that using a little bit of information and some applied math, you can develop and extract all of the information you need.

[PeteM]

Not saying it isn't valuable it's just that I most likely won't be using it unless I go work for the AWS and write papers like you shared with us. Keep sharing i may as well use the math for something. Every knf once in awhile it may be useful

Ok. That paper was written by a scientist at Bettis Nuclear Laboratory, which is right down the street from me. I've even worked with a few guys that have welded there and at places like Holtech (look them up.)

That work is no joke and they don't accept jokers. You need to prove that you have the smarts and are able to do the mental gymnastics required to understand the importance of the equipment that is being built. Aside from any number of absolutely pristine weld tests you need to complete you are also subject to a written exam. There's going to be some math on it. You better be able to do it, what ever it may be.

Apparently I've only ever met the washouts from Holtec [FACE WITH TEARS OF JOY] I haven't met a single one that could weld anything but pipe, and even that was Debatable!

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

There are always a couple. I ran into a few at Thermal Transfer. Those dudes were pretty sharp though. Except for the one guy. I think they sprayed too much perfume into his hood.

[GreinTime]

Ok. That paper was written by a scientist at Bettis Nuclear Laboratory, which is right down the street from me. I've even worked with a few guys that have welded there and at places like Holtech (look them up.)

That work is no joke and they don't accept jokers. You need to prove that you have the smarts and are able to do the mental gymnastics required to understand the importance of the equipment that is being built. Aside from any number of absolutely pristine weld tests you need to complete you are also subject to a written exam. There's going to be some math on it. You better be able to do it, what ever it may be.

Apparently I've only ever met the washouts from Holtec [FACE WITH TEARS OF JOY] I haven't met a single one that could weld anything but pipe, and even that was Debatable!

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

There are always a couple. I ran into a few at Thermal Transfer. Those dudes were pretty sharp though. Except for the one guy. I think they sprayed too much perfume into his hood.

We weld a lot of 18 and 20-22ga stainless and aluminum though, so it's a little bit of a different ball game. Pedal control/heat modulation was not a skill that any of them possessed.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

[PeteM]

We weld a lot of 18 and 20-22ga stainless and aluminum though, so it's a little bit of a different ball game. Pedal control/heat modulation was not a skill that any of them possessed.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

Are you at Holtec?

I've been told that place is ridiculously difficult to get hired on at. I applied once, never heard back from them, then moved on.

[Farmwelding]

So I've thought and read and re-read and this is what I have come to realize/beleive. So you cam do a lot of the math with more basic math (geometry, trig, algebra) but there are a few exclusions and sometimes it is simpler if you know the math to use a more advanced form or it may be more accurate. With that circle formula Pete, I don't know if it would help at all but I thought of a website we used in pre calc. Desmos graphing calculator-you can put a picture on there center it and then plot points and develop an equation. Maybe it isn't accurate enough or won't work because it is out of porportion- just a thought.

I just use a graphing calculator. Ti-98 I think. It fits in my toolbox and doesn't need wi-fi. You can do a ton of stuff with those, like create equations for multiple hole patterns, put them on the table function and lay out a bunch of beams- the uses are endless.

Anyways, point of that was that using a little bit of information and some applied math, you can develop and extract all of the information you need.

Id like to take the time to figure out all of that type of stuff on my calculator Ti-84 plus ce. They just have so much you can do with them and I only have so little room in my brain to remember it all. I'll just stick to what we were taught until the AP exam in May so I don't forget any more.

[MinnesotaDave]

So I've thought and read and re-read and this is what I have come to realize/beleive. So you cam do a lot of the math with more basic math (geometry, trig, algebra) but there are a few exclusions and sometimes it is simpler if you know the math to use a more advanced form or it may be more accurate. With that circle formula Pete, I don't know if it would help at all but I thought of a website we used in pre calc. Desmos graphing calculator-you can put a picture on there center it and then plot points and develop an equation. Maybe it isn't accurate enough or won't work because it is out of porportion- just a thought.

I just use a graphing calculator. Ti-98 I think. It fits in my toolbox and doesn't need wi-fi. You can do a ton of stuff with those, like create equations for multiple hole patterns, put them on the table function and lay out a bunch of beams- the uses are endless.

Anyways, point of that was that using a little bit of information and some applied math, you can develop and extract all of the information you need.

I like the TI-89 but I like the Voyage 200 (also TI product) a little better.
They have the same capabilities but I like the layout of the 200 and the screen is easier for me to read.
I do the same, use the table feature to display values - super handy.
The cheapest one I've found that has a table feature, trig functions, 4 line viewing window, but no graphs, is the TI-30XS multiview. About $20 and stays in my tool box or glove box.

Desmos graphs nice, and is easy to use for that - but it is limited computationally compared to the 89 and 200 though.

I always use it for the classroom displays because it's easy to see for students.
Then I make sure they access it on their phones in class often so they can use it where ever they are if they don't have a graphing calculator with them for homework.

[GreinTime]

We weld a lot of 18 and 20-22ga stainless and aluminum though, so it's a little bit of a different ball game. Pedal control/heat modulation was not a skill that any of them possessed.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

Are you at Holtec?

I've been told that place is ridiculously difficult to get hired on at. I applied once, never heard back from them, then moved on.

No, I'm at a shop in Etna doing architectural furniture. Currently on a massive shelving project for a major retailer. All stainless, all a pain in the dick. You'll see the shelves in a few months if you go to fruit stores to buy cell phones

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

[Farmwelding]

I always use it for the classroom displays because it's easy to see for students.
Then I make sure they access it on their phones in class often so they can use it where ever they are if they don't have a graphing calculator with them for homework.[/quote]

What math classes do you teach?

[MinnesotaDave]

What math classes do you teach?

This year I'm teaching 9th Alg, Alg 2, Senior Math, Pre-Calc/Trig, woodshop, welding.

[Oscar]

It's been 35 years since Highschool and I have never used algebra one time to solve a problem.

Actually, in a way, you have. Solving algebra problems as a youth builds up the neuron connections in your brain that are used to solve ANY logical problem. The more abstract math (like algebra) that one practices, the more neurons are utilized to make logical thinking/problem solving faster and more efficient. That is the whole point of studying math in school. It's like body building. Unless you're a professional bodybuilder, you don't lift weights for the sake of lifting weights---you're after some other kind of after-effect. Studying math is the "lifting weights" part----solving real world problems [in any way] is the "after effect" of building up your brain muscles (neural activity/efficiency).

[Farmwelding]

Well that was quite insightful