[Chips O'Toole]

Several years back, I bought an Eastwood Professional welding cart for $99 on sale. It had a problem. I complained. They sent a new one. I fixed the problem with the first cart. They didn't want it back. Now I have two carts for $50 each.

They're good carts, but they are cumbersome and not easy to move, and there isn't much storage.

Now that welders have gotten lighter, people are turning tool chests into carts. They add shelves for the bottles, plus cord hangers and so on, and they're all set. I like this idea. My tools are always on my table, getting dirty and taking up room. I need drawers for my welding stuff.

A company called All-a-Cart sells kits to turn chests in to carts, under the brand ZTFab. For my needs, using a Harbor Freight US General box, a kit would run $280, on top of the $300 for the tool chest.

That seems insane to me. Think what you can buy for $580.

I'm thinking I should just buy two pieces of rectangular tubing, 8 bolts, and two pieces of plate and make my own tool chest cart. It would cost maybe $340, including the HF chest but not tax. I figure it would take a day, not including the time it takes paint to dry.

Basically, I would be buying the chest, which I already need, and for another $40, I would also get a cart.

Does $280 for a kit sound reasonable to anyone here? It's basically two pieces of bent plate, an axle, and two wheels.

I don't get the whole All-a-Cart thing. They sell other carts which are very expensive, and I don't see what they do that even begins to justify the outlay.

[LtBadd]

Well to each their own, I do recognize that a lot of time went into the design and fabrication of their carts, but they're not something I would spend money on. JMO

[Chips O'Toole]

I don't blame them for trying to recover their expenses. I just don't want them to recover all of them from me.

[Spartan]

Sounds like you have a good way forward with building it yourself.

The ZTFab carts, and ones like them, are just for show. Instagram carts, IMO. You probably won't find many of those in the shops of people who can, and do, build things. But of course, we now live in the world of Instagram and Facebook where people just want to take and post pretty pictures of things with no substantive value.

[cj737]

Does $280 for a kit sound reasonable to anyone here? It's basically two pieces of bent plate, an axle, and two wheels.

I don't get the whole All-a-Cart thing. They sell other carts which are very expensive, and I don't see what they do that even begins to justify the outlay.

There’s a great deal of thought, fabrication and equipment that goes into making one of their carts or kits. Bending tubing, shearing and braking metal, drilling and punching stiffener holes. If you think it’s “just some tubing and sheet good” then you’re equivalent to the guy who walks in and says, “Should only take 10 minutes to weld that”.

Fine, you think they’re over-priced. You can make for yourself something adequate for your needs. Do that. But don’t disparage a company who invests tons of their hard-earned money into machinery to make things for others.

I’ve built my own carts too because I have the equipment to tube bend, punch and weld. I can tell you, it took me a few days to completely fabricate, weld and paint them. Had I charged for my time, my cart would have cost more than $500 plus material costs. That’s $50/Hr for a work day. I charge a lot more than that for my time, maybe you don’t. I’ve bought rod racks and tool racks from the guy merely to support a small business that does for, and gives to our industry. I’m happy to part with a few extra bucks to help someone out who is making a go of it on his own.

You think you can turn out what they do, at their QC/QA level AND pack, ship and handle those goods? I doubt it. On top of that, he has overhead, taxes, insurance and people to feed. Take all that into consideration before you start banging on some company being greedy and over-priced. Small businesses can’t meet “throw away” product pricing like Eastwood, Northern Tool and Harbor Freight. If that’s your budget, completely cool. Bear all that in mind the next time someone walks into your shop asking for a price for your valuable time and his jaw drops.

This forum is certainly no place for besmirching fabricators in the industry, whether they’re on IG, FB or not. That’s how they market their products and feed their family. This forum is the residue of just such a tactic. Think about it.

[Oscar]

Very informative post Spartan. As a hobbyist, it's nearly impossible to see what actually happens in the industry. I think Chips likely has a much better understanding of the process, as do I. Kinda goes back to something I like to say at times, "if it was truly easy, everybody would do it"

[Chips O'Toole]

This forum is certainly no place for besmirching fabricators in the industry, whether they’re on IG, FB or not.

Sorry, but I'm not taking a knee, and it's pointless to try to shame me. Questioning the value of a product is not "besmirching." It's exactly the kind of question consumers are supposed to raise. No apology here. I comment on products and manufacturers all the time, and I will never stop. I've posted a lot of reviews online, and I've read other people's reviews, too. Public discussion of businesses is a great tool. It helps people get good value for their money, and it helps manufacturers do better.

As for the cost of making the product, that's 100% irrelevant to the consumer. If it cost them $5000 to make these few parts, it wouldn't mean they were worth $5000, plus a markup, to you or me. If their manufacturing costs are too high, that's on them. It means their business model is no good. In a capitalist society, minimizing manufacturing costs is something businesses simply have to do. It's not the public's job to subsidize their mistakes.

As for whether $310 ($280 plus non-free shipping) is reasonable for a few pieces of bent plate, well, I just paid less than twice that for a new American-made smoker, manufactured by a small business that does very well. It's thick stainless steel. It's fully insulated on all sides, except for the bottom, and that means it has double sides, so lots of steel and fiberglass. It has a built-in thermostat and heating element, which means electrical engineers were involved. The drip pan, fire box, and racks are quality stainless products. It was packed beautifully. It came with excellent, lengthy instructions, including a great, proven, detailed guide to smoking a long list of foods. I got free shipping, like everyone else. The company has a reputation for great support after the sale, too. It's a product that will be around until someone gets sick of it, because it would literally take centuries to wear out.

It's a magnificent product, and the company has at least one successful competitor that sells nearly the same thing for a comparable price, so it's not a business miracle. It's also something very, very few home metalworkers could make, unlike a cart conversion kit. Anyone with a finger brake and a plasma cutter or cutting torch could make a good welding cart kit at home, and the steel would cost less than $50 where I live. I'm a terrible metalworker, and I can do a good job with this project in one day. In fact, I already have a design, and it's stronger, simpler, and better.

I spent $300 (free shipping) on a SWAG Offroad product. It's a kit that turns a Harbor Freight press into a finger brake. It's very heavy, so the steel was not cheap. Production involved putting long bends in 3/8" plate, which is impossible to do at home for nearly everyone. There was also some machining and considerable precision cutting involved. On top of all that, it's a fantastic, innovative invention, unlike a welding cart kit. I thought $300 was completely reasonable, but this was an original, heavy, hard-to-make, fairly complicated tool that transformed my shop. For about $600, including a press and air jack, I can do things people with $2000 brakes can't do. It wasn't a few brackets with holes in them.

You can get a really nice American-made rifle for less than the cost of the cart kit. Which is harder to make? Which requires more skilled labor and expensive machinery? CNC machining isn't cheap. One machine can easily run 6 figures. I've bought quality American-made scopes, new, for under $300. Try making a scope.

The cost of the cart kit and cart goes to about $600, all told. For $500, you can get a Vulcan cart which holds three welders and two bottles and includes a cabinet. I have a cheaper Vulcan cart, and it's a terrific product, and I mean by American standards, not Chinese. Far, far superior to the awful cart that came with my Lincoln.

Are you sure you would say a few pieces of bent plate are a good value at $280? Isn't it reasonable for someone to question it?

Good product? Probably. Good price? Hard to see it. "Besmirching"? No. Not at all. Maybe my question will help the company. They might read it, lower prices, increase sales, and make more money.

[Chips O'Toole]

The ZTFab carts, and ones like them, are just for show. Instagram carts, IMO. You probably won't find many of those in the shops of people who can, and do, build things. But of course, we now live in the world of Instagram and Facebook where people just want to take and post pretty pictures of things with no substantive value.

This sounds about right.

The carts (not the conversion kits) seem like they would appeal to hobbyists like me, who don't have to worry about expenses and profits. You get an easy project you can tack together and take credit for, and it looks great and probably works very well. Whether it's a good value as a cart is another question.

They make a cart for my AlphaTIG. The pre-shipping cost is $450. You have to weld it yourself, and then you have to spend several days painting it. No professional is going to do that, to get a cart that does exactly what a $99 Vulcan cart does. You would spend maybe 6 hours doing a decent job, and you wouldn't be able to bill anyone for it. And including a good paint job, the time frame, from receiving the package to using the cart, would be at least three days. You can't just shoot Krylon on a quality tool and throw bottles on it before it fully cures.

[Coldman]

I don't think any disparagement was intended. I also agree that the zt cart is an excellent product, but I would be embarrassed to have one in my shop. That's because I can and should make a very good one myself. Material was mostly drops but labour was significant as per previous, but I'd rather put in the labour, keep the money in my pocket, and end up with a cart that suits my situation.
I also know shops that only buy cheap bamboo kits because they won't pay their staff to make them.
Each to his own I guess.

[BugHunter]

Stuff like this really comes down to economies of scale. Just because a shop has the capabilities to make XYZ doesn't mean they have the facilities, nor the demand, to mass produce them.

I liken this discussion to a situation I run into damn near weekly, where someone comes into my machine shop with some part for lord knows what, often a lawn mower that's now discontinued and no parts available, and they ask me can I make this part which they can't find online... Well, technically yes, but you can't afford it. Then you get the despondent look as if to say, Well, I found where they used to be available online for $150, can't you make it for that?

That exact thing just happened recently on a shaft for a mower deck. Guy brings it in, 6" long shaft, hardened steel with splines and threads, centers for grinding, bearing diameters, Key slots (multiple), holes for cotter pins in castle nuts... No, I am not making that. Go away and buy a new mower.

I would guess they started out as a fun project which they found enough demand to continue making. But in limited numbers, they're more money. Really no different than buying a 3/8-16 4" bolt at the store vs asking a machine shop to make one for you. $0.50 / $175.00

[Chips O'Toole]

I don't think any disparagement was intended. I also agree that the zt cart is an excellent product, but I would be embarrassed to have one in my shop. That's because I can and should make a very good one myself.

I certainly didn't intend to besmirch anyone, so if anyone got hit with flying smirch, I apologize. Gojo should take it off.

Today I bought a tool chest and 5 pieces of steel. I didn't just buy steel for the cart project, so I haven't separated the costs out, but the total for the cart steel would be around $32, including tax, if any. I will have to buy 8 bolts over at Tractor Supply. Their fastener prices are very cheap, so it ought to run about two dollars.

I think this is going to be a super-fast project. There is very little to it. I'm going to attach two lengths of tubing to the bottom of the cart extending past one side about 12". I'll put 11-gauge plate on the extended parts of the tubes to hold a bottle. I'll run bolts through the tubing into the toolchest's original holes to hold the tubes in place. The casters on the side farthest from the bottle will be bolted on using the original holes. The ones on the far end will be at the ends of the tubes.

This gives me a platform for the bottle.

I'll bend another piece of plate at 90 degrees and bolt it to the side of the cart a couple of feet up, and I'll cut out an arc for the bottle to occupy. This will retain the bottle. I'll rig up a chain for it. I'll drill some holes for filler tubes.

I'll make some cord holders by bending 1" by 1/8" bar and screw them to the back of the cart.

After that, I'll blast the new parts with truck bed coating. I may weld the ends of the tubes shut to make them pretty.

Should work fine. Hope I'm not missing anything.

I really don't think this box needs a huge, heavy, additional frame. It already has strong support build into it. I might conceivably put a 1" square tube at the platform end, between the tubes, to stiffen the plate.

I plan to use a plasma cutter or propane torch to cut the arc out of the plate, but some kid on Youtube did a fine job with an angle grinder.

[Spartan]

I certainly didn't intend to besmirch anyone, so if anyone got hit with flying smirch, I apologize. Gojo should take it off.

Today I bought a tool chest and 5 pieces of steel. I didn't just buy steel for the cart project, so I haven't separated the costs out, but the total for the cart steel would be around $32, including tax, if any. I will have to buy 8 bolts over at Tractor Supply. Their fastener prices are very cheap, so it ought to run about two dollars.

I think this is going to be a super-fast project. There is very little to it. I'm going to attach two lengths of tubing to the bottom of the cart extending past one side about 12". I'll put 11-gauge plate on the extended parts of the tubes to hold a bottle. I'll run bolts through the tubing into the toolchest's original holes to hold the tubes in place. The casters on the side farthest from the bottle will be bolted on using the original holes. The ones on the far end will be at the ends of the tubes.

This gives me a platform for the bottle.

I'll bend another piece of plate at 90 degrees and bolt it to the side of the cart a couple of feet up, and I'll cut out an arc for the bottle to occupy. This will retain the bottle. I'll rig up a chain for it. I'll drill some holes for filler tubes.

I'll make some cord holders by bending 1" by 1/8" bar and screw them to the back of the cart.

After that, I'll blast the new parts with truck bed coating. I may weld the ends of the tubes shut to make them pretty.

Should work fine. Hope I'm not missing anything.

I really don't think this box needs a huge, heavy, additional frame. It already has strong support build into it. I might conceivably put a 1" square tube at the platform end, between the tubes, to stiffen the plate.

I plan to use a plasma cutter or propane torch to cut the arc out of the plate, but some kid on Youtube did a fine job with an angle grinder.

Not sure why so many people cut arcs for bottles. I just use V grooves. Works just as well, and much easier to cut.

[Chips O'Toole]

Not sure why so many people cut arcs for bottles. I just use V grooves. Works just as well, and much easier to cut.

One possible explanation is that you know a lot more about welding carts than I do. I will see if I can find photos of the kind of cut you're talking about.

The project turned out to be slightly harder than I thought. The bottom of the chest has a sheet metal rim around it, so you can't just bolt rectangular tubing to the holes for the casters. The tubing would crush the rim. I had to weld spacers onto my tubing. It was not hard at all. If it were hard, I wouldn't be able to do it.

So far, the hardest part of the job has been finding metric bolts. I'm going to have to leave 6 bolts out of it and put them in later. I had to use 5/16" bolts for two casters. I may just weld the casters under the cylinders on. I'm nervous about welding pretty new casters, but I need to get over that.

I'm going put the casters way out on the end instead of using all of the holes under the chest.

I can post a photo or two in case anyone else wants to try this. I welded the ends of the tubing shut to make it pretty, and that took a lot of time. I guess most people wouldn't do that. If you have the parts on hand when you start, it's basically a one-day job, apart from waiting for the paint to dry.

For around $400, I should be able to put two welders on one cart along with two bottles and a truckload of clamps, rods, random consumables, and assorted doodads. The chest was $320 including tax, and so far, I have about $32 in metal costs. Oops. I forgot the $5 piece I found on a shelf in my shop. So $37. Truck bed coating will cost another $13, and I have to get some chain and snap clips.

10 13 20 harbor freight tool chest welding cart 07 spacers positioned on tubing small.jpg (183.16 KiB) Viewed 8823 times

10 13 20 harbor freight tool chest welding cart 08 spacer welded to tubing small.jpg (140.79 KiB) Viewed 8823 times

10 13 20 harbor freight tool chest welding cart 09 tubing mocked up on chest small.jpg (175.71 KiB) Viewed 8823 times

[BugHunter]

Looks to be coming along nice, and the bed liner will be a nice touch. I have a guy who does all my powder coat work who will throw in my 'government' projects along with the work stuff, so I'm partial to powder coat. But my new Chevy pickup has some bedliner in it that's actually self healing and that's really nice. First time I gouged it I thought... 'here we go... first rip in the liner...", only to look for the rip 20 minutes later and couldn't find it. Unbelievable.

[Chips O'Toole]

Truck bed coating has worked really well for me. I made a mobile base from it, and when I cut the base up for something else, I had forgotten what was on it. I had a hard time telling the bed coating from hard scale. And it didn't need primer.

I just wish they made more colors.

[Chips O'Toole]

This project is so easy, it's a joke, but I am not done because I'm still trying to get enough metric bolts. The metric system is great for science, but it sure makes mechanical projects difficult.

[Coldman]

I grew up in the inch system. Halfway through skool we changed to metric so I had to forget inch and learn anew. Got into engineering, the first project I was sent to was a 44 floor construction that was ten years late due to the local union chewing up the American construction company, so it was designed and still constructed in the inch system. So for a year I had to forget metric and relearn inch in the drawing office, scaling measuring etc. After that year I had to forget inches and relearn working in metric. And of course all our threads in those days were BSW ( British Standard Whitworth). These days if you try to buy imperial you get UNC (yankee stuff) so now we can come up against three systems on site depending on where the machinery came from and what age it is. I keep both BSP and NPT taps and die nuts in the truck because I'm constantly up against mismatch between sockets and valves/pressure gauges. I measure in kPa and think in PSI. I measure in mm and think in inches. Beer is required to settle the melon down after work. You think you have probs.

[LtBadd]

Beer is required to settle the melon down after work. You think you have probs.

[Spartan]

I was working overseas with some UK folks a couple years ago on an engineering project and we all kept ribbing each other about our different measurement systems as we worked. At some point I asked one of the brits to pass me a 9/64" drill bit (or something like that...), and he just looked at me blankly and said "See what I mean? Having to say nine sixty fourths of an inch is so incredibly stupid".

And yes, at that moment I did see exactly what he meant. It really is quite stupid

[BillE.Dee]

AFter all this time I still find nuts and bolts on vehicles to be mixed...some inch and some metric. I'm too old for this change thing. And all those people that drive on the wrong side of the road make me quiver.
YAY BEER!!!

[Coldman]

I was working overseas with some UK folks a couple years ago on an engineering project and we all kept ribbing each other about our different measurement systems as we worked. At some point I asked one of the brits to pass me a 9/64" drill bit (or something like that...), and he just looked at me blankly and said "See what I mean? Having to say nine sixty fourths of an inch is so incredibly stupid".

And yes, at that moment I did see exactly what he meant. It really is quite stupid

Agreed, but... I can see fractions in my head, what annoys me is you Americans describing metal in thousandths. That's just nuts. Machinists use it for precision work, that's what it's meant for. Why can't you call 1/4" plate 1/4" plate? Why call it 25 thousandths? Now I gotta convert thousandths to fractions in my head to understand what kind of metal we're talking about. Drive a man to beer. To much gum and hot dogs I recon.

Sent from my CPH2091 using Tapatalk

[LtBadd]

I do believe 1/4" plate to be a bit thicker then 25 thousands You'll figure it out over a brew or 2

[Chips O'Toole]

I had weekend guests, so that killed several days. I finally got enough metric bolts to put the base on the cart. Today I welded the rigid casters to the tubing and bolted the cart to the base. I put the casters out on the end. I get a bigger turning radius, which is bad, but I didn't like the idea of having the tanks bouncing up and down on what would essentially have been a steel diving board.

It's going to be perfect. I was afraid 11-gauge plate would flex with two tanks on it and no transverse supporting member, but I jumped up and down on it, and it didn't budge.

I had to go Tractor Supply, Home Depot, and Lowe's to get 16 bolts. Unbelievable.

I'm going to make a second cart, so I ordered a box of bolts from Ebay. I don't want another one-day job to turn into a 10-day job.

The chest has screw holes for a handle on the side where the tanks go. I want to use them to hold the bracket that secures the bottles, but it's pretty high for an 80. I may get rid of my small tank and get a second 125 for C25. I think that's smarter than trying to construct a weird bracket that uses the existing holes. You can't have too much gas.

My biggest error was welding caps on the tubing before drilling holes. The tubes filled with chips, and when I tried to install bolts, they caught chips and drove them into the threaded holes. I had to get a tap out and chase the threads, and then I had to get tiny pliers and pull all the chips out of the tubes so they didn't gum the threads up again.

I think this will work very well. It will take up about as much room as one of my existing carts, but it will hold two machines up near eye level, where they should be, and I'll also be able to jam most of my welding doodads into two carts, freeing up a huge amount of space on the table, the floor, in my other chests...

10 21 20 harbor freight tool chest welding cart 10 resting on nearly complete base small.jpg (64.21 KiB) Viewed 8556 times

[Thatkid2diesel]

I had weekend guests, so that killed several days. I finally got enough metric bolts to put the base on the cart. Today I welded the rigid casters to the tubing and bolted the cart to the base. I put the casters out on the end. I get a bigger turning radius, which is bad, but I didn't like the idea of having the tanks bouncing up and down on what would essentially have been a steel diving board.

It's going to be perfect. I was afraid 11-gauge plate would flex with two tanks on it and no transverse supporting member, but I jumped up and down on it, and it didn't budge.

I had to go Tractor Supply, Home Depot, and Lowe's to get 16 bolts. Unbelievable.

I'm going to make a second cart, so I ordered a box of bolts from Ebay. I don't want another one-day job to turn into a 10-day job.

The chest has screw holes for a handle on the side where the tanks go. I want to use them to hold the bracket that secures the bottles, but it's pretty high for an 80. I may get rid of my small tank and get a second 125 for C25. I think that's smarter than trying to construct a weird bracket that uses the existing holes. You can't have too much gas.

My biggest error was welding caps on the tubing before drilling holes. The tubes filled with chips, and when I tried to install bolts, they caught chips and drove them into the threaded holes. I had to get a tap out and chase the threads, and then I had to get tiny pliers and pull all the chips out of the tubes so they didn't gum the threads up again.

I think this will work very well. It will take up about as much room as one of my existing carts, but it will hold two machines up near eye level, where they should be, and I'll also be able to jam most of my welding doodads into two carts, freeing up a huge amount of space on the table, the floor, in my other chests...

10 21 20 harbor freight tool chest welding cart 10 resting on nearly complete base small.jpg

Turned out nice Chips. I could see doing one like that myself.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

[Chips O'Toole]

Thanks. I'm probably the worst fabricator on the forum, so if mine is coming out this well, yours will probably be much better.