Hey guys, I'm still thinking about getting into some minor welding, just for a few small home projects I have. By no means am I thinking of becoming a pro nor do I have time or will to go through the schooling required. I was previously looking into a budget TIG (everlast, longevity....), but it seems foolish to spend so much on just a few small projects.
That being said, I still want to play around a bit, mostly hoping to get into a fun hobby, and maybe invest in some good equipment later on. I will be doing pretty much all aluminum, up to 1/4" max. I am thinking about starting off with old school oxy/ace gas welding. I can get a full setup pretty cheap with smaller bottles and I know you can do a great job with lots of practice.
So can you tell me how it will be opposed to TIG welding? I am sure the TIG would be more precise, but can I get decent results? Good strength? Good penetration? Will the welds look nice or even similar to the stack of dimes? Thanks
In the 50's-60's the British race car industries which developed after the war(aircraft weldors) became very proficent welding Alum with oxy/fuel process. I got interested and tried. Many hours of practice and messy fluxes (nasty) and bitch clean up and weld prep. The 1100 and 3000 series alum easiest.
I nerver got very good at it. Gave up went back to AC TIG.
Sure delvoped apprecation for the craftsman that could.
Sometimes the new way is better,but O/A alum can be done.
By the way special blue lens goggles required for seeing the weld clearly,like the ones used around blast furnaces called cobalt blue which of course OHSHA kicked for something not as good,still might find them out of England.
I nerver got very good at it. Gave up went back to AC TIG.
Sure delvoped apprecation for the craftsman that could.
Sometimes the new way is better,but O/A alum can be done.
By the way special blue lens goggles required for seeing the weld clearly,like the ones used around blast furnaces called cobalt blue which of course OHSHA kicked for something not as good,still might find them out of England.
Everlast 250EX
Miller 250 syncrowave
Sharp LMV Vertical Mill
Takisawa TSL-800-D Lathe
Coupla Bandsaws,Grinders,surface grinder,tool/cutter grinder
and more stuff than I deserve(Thanks Significant Other)
Miller 250 syncrowave
Sharp LMV Vertical Mill
Takisawa TSL-800-D Lathe
Coupla Bandsaws,Grinders,surface grinder,tool/cutter grinder
and more stuff than I deserve(Thanks Significant Other)
- weldin mike 27
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Hey,
Our member Werkspace is the guy here to ask. He does this all the time. Quite well i believe .
Mick
Our member Werkspace is the guy here to ask. He does this all the time. Quite well i believe .
Mick
silentneko
- silentneko
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Cool hopefully he will post up, if not I'll contact him.
No I was talking about a smaller home set up, I think they come with 20cu ft tanks. Although the oxy/map mini kits might work well too as I might only need 10 minutes of burn time.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Bernzomatic- ... /203391033
No I was talking about a smaller home set up, I think they come with 20cu ft tanks. Although the oxy/map mini kits might work well too as I might only need 10 minutes of burn time.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Bernzomatic- ... /203391033
noddybrian
- noddybrian
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That kit while small / light / portable is not at all suitable & will not effectively weld even smaller parts - MAPP gas is not a substitute for acetylene - it is however a good set up for occasional silver solder or brazing jobs on smaller parts - I've used one for emergency repairs in the field though I used oxygen from a small Cylinder of around 15 liters @ 200 bar capacity - the flame from the supplied nozzle is not as defined a cone compared with a regular torch which for some jobs can actually be better - such as emergency aluminum repair with one of those "magic" sticks such as lumiweld .
Aluminum can be welded with oxy /acet - but if you have no prior experience it's fairly difficult to master & none of the flux I've tried keeps long once opened - the best welds I did were with a flux cored rod - I don't recall the brand - but they were quite expensive - economically it may make more sense for you to have someone else weld your parts - to set up for welding aluminum is often more expensive than the job is worth.
Aluminum can be welded with oxy /acet - but if you have no prior experience it's fairly difficult to master & none of the flux I've tried keeps long once opened - the best welds I did were with a flux cored rod - I don't recall the brand - but they were quite expensive - economically it may make more sense for you to have someone else weld your parts - to set up for welding aluminum is often more expensive than the job is worth.
With the proper instruction, learning to gas weld can be achieved relatively quickly, If you aren't willing to invest the time or money into learning how to weld, you may consider using bolts, rivets, or hiring someone else to weld it for you.
http://forum.weldingtipsandtricks.com/v ... =19&t=2447
http://forum.weldingtipsandtricks.com/v ... =19&t=2447
silentneko wrote:Hey guys, I'm still thinking about getting into some minor welding, just for a few small home projects I have. By no means am I thinking of becoming a pro nor do I have time or will to go through the schooling required. I was previously looking into a budget TIG (everlast, longevity....), but it seems foolish to spend so much on just a few small projects.
That being said, I still want to play around a bit, mostly hoping to get into a fun hobby, and maybe invest in some good equipment later on. I will be doing pretty much all aluminum, up to 1/4" max. I am thinking about starting off with old school oxy/ace gas welding. I can get a full setup pretty cheap with smaller bottles and I know you can do a great job with lots of practice. So can you tell me how it will be opposed to TIG welding? I am sure the TIG would be more precise, but can I get decent results? Good strength? Good penetration? Will the welds look nice or even similar to the stack of dimes? Thanks
silentneko wrote:Cool hopefully he will post up, if not I'll contact him.
No I was talking about a smaller home set up, I think they come with 20cu ft tanks. Although the oxy/map mini kits might work well too as I might only need 10 minutes of burn time.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Bernzomatic- ... /203391033
That's what I was referring to, the small "portable" setups, your not going to get to far before needing a fill up.
The bernzo setup is not able to weld
silentneko
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This was the actual kit I was going to buy, unless something interesting comes up. I just think the little bernzomatic kit looked cool.
I already know how to use bolts and rivets, and can have my neighbor sneak projects into work to be welded for me. But where is the fun in all of that. I wanted to take an adult ed coarse, the kind they used to have for a few evenings here and there, but they don't seem to have them anymore. So if I wanted to learn to weld from a school it is a year long program around here and $6,000. I already have a great career so that's not going to happen. I am more then willing to put in the time to practice and learn in my free time, but again it doesn't make sense to spend a grand or better for just a few pieces. I learned how to design boats, rebuild cars, do fiberglass work, and build furniture all out of fun. Learning how to gas weld/cut just seems like it could be a useful thing for me to know and fun to do.
Thanks for those videos, I've been looking at them and others on youtube. I think this is a viable option for me. But just in case an AC TIG machine pops up for cheap, is gas or TIG easier to learn?
I already know how to use bolts and rivets, and can have my neighbor sneak projects into work to be welded for me. But where is the fun in all of that. I wanted to take an adult ed coarse, the kind they used to have for a few evenings here and there, but they don't seem to have them anymore. So if I wanted to learn to weld from a school it is a year long program around here and $6,000. I already have a great career so that's not going to happen. I am more then willing to put in the time to practice and learn in my free time, but again it doesn't make sense to spend a grand or better for just a few pieces. I learned how to design boats, rebuild cars, do fiberglass work, and build furniture all out of fun. Learning how to gas weld/cut just seems like it could be a useful thing for me to know and fun to do.
Thanks for those videos, I've been looking at them and others on youtube. I think this is a viable option for me. But just in case an AC TIG machine pops up for cheap, is gas or TIG easier to learn?
- Otto Nobedder
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If you've done neither, and you want to weld aluminum, the TIG will likely be easier to learn. There are fewer variables to deal with, and the consumables are cheaper.silentneko wrote:...just in case an AC TIG machine pops up for cheap, is gas or TIG easier to learn?
However, the initial cost goes up a lot for thicker metals, due to the max power and sustained power you'll need from your machine as thickness increases. Also, I advise against learning on the cheapest machine available, as you won't have the experience to recognize machine issues vs. technique. If you go TIG, buy from local Cragslist, and get a demonstration.
The long-term (maintenance) cost is lower for TIG, as argon and electricity are cheaper then acetylene and flux.
Your mileage may vary...
Steve S
silentneko
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I'm not in a rush so I may watch CL for a bit and see if anything pops up that looks interesting.
Let me ask a question about the machines power capacity. I've heard I may have issues welding 1/4" aluminum with an 185 machine, but I'm not sure if that applies since I'm not looking for full penetration. Most of what I will be doing will be 1/8" and under, but I may need to put an occasional 1/4" tab on. However it will be welded from both sides. So does that mean I am welding 1/4" still, or am I welding 1/8" from both sides? Basically will the smaller machines work well enough for the tabs?
Let me ask a question about the machines power capacity. I've heard I may have issues welding 1/4" aluminum with an 185 machine, but I'm not sure if that applies since I'm not looking for full penetration. Most of what I will be doing will be 1/8" and under, but I may need to put an occasional 1/4" tab on. However it will be welded from both sides. So does that mean I am welding 1/4" still, or am I welding 1/8" from both sides? Basically will the smaller machines work well enough for the tabs?
- Otto Nobedder
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The aluminum won't care how much penetration you're seeking. The thickness is the heat sink you must overcome to get the metal hot enough to weld.
The 185 will do 1/4" with good preheat, but you won't want to to more than short welds because of the machine's duty cycle.
Steve S
The 185 will do 1/4" with good preheat, but you won't want to to more than short welds because of the machine's duty cycle.
Steve S
silentneko
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Perfect, how short of a weld? Few inches? Map gas for preheat?
- Otto Nobedder
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I'd think a 2-3" fillet (one side of a tab, as you described) would be fine in one go (and maybe more, if the machine is in cold conditions), and Mapp gas is fine as well, with the following caveat (true for most preheat methods): Bring the metal up to 250-300*F, then wire-brush it... most gas preheats will leave a carbon residue you should remove.
Steve S
Steve S
They have similar learning curves, but I learned gas welding first, so TIG was an easy transition. There are differences in each type of welding. Gas welding is more portable, as you don't need an electrical power source. On the downside, acetylene tanks can be very dangerous if not handled properly.
Gas welding makes a softer weld that is less prone to cracking, but the downside is that the Heat Affected Zone is larger, and will take the temper out of the joint of most tempered aluminum. TIG has a relatively narrow HAZ and provides a harder weld that can be prone to cracking, if the aluminum is not preheated or not warm enough to start with. It's all about the internal stress that is created by different temperatures. You will find the same problem with welding cast iron. Lots of preheat and post heat will definitely help prevent cracking.
TIG is an electric flame and can be controlled using similar techniques to Gas welding. With gas welding you have to move the torch closer or farther away to control the heat, while TIG welding heat is traditionally controlled via a foot pedal or manually pulsing the weld. They both have their advantages and disadvantage but both types of welding will require time to learn.
TIG welding requires proper tungsten tip maintenance and the additional cost of the inert gas cylinder. TIG welding also requires a higher shade of eye protection via the welding helmet, while gas welding requires a lower shade of eye protection. TIG welding requires a higher level of UV skin protection, while Gas welding is not a concern in respect to UV burns. Stick welding would have the highest level of UV concern. There are lots of factors and differences. Each type of welding has a similar learning curve in order to get proficient.
If you want that stack of dimes look, you are going to have to work hard to develop your skills. That is why I stated before, that if you only had a few small projects and did not want to spend a thousand or more on equipment, financially it makes more sense to hire out the work.
The bottom line is Do You Trust Your Own Welding Skills? If this is an ornamental/artistic project then it's not so important, but if the project was to be rolling down the highway with lives at risk, you might want to consider why welders get certified.
I don't weld for a living but I have been welding for over 30 years on all sorts of projects. I took the time to learn and spent plenty of money on a variety of welding machines. I have ten of them in total. My latest welding machine is very controversial as it works on water as a fuel. I like it very much and find that it does what I need it to do. It does not require any form of compressed gas cylinder, compressor or tungsten tips. Each of my welding machines is good at something but not good at everything. It all comes down to spending the time and money to get proficient at what you want to do.
Gas welding makes a softer weld that is less prone to cracking, but the downside is that the Heat Affected Zone is larger, and will take the temper out of the joint of most tempered aluminum. TIG has a relatively narrow HAZ and provides a harder weld that can be prone to cracking, if the aluminum is not preheated or not warm enough to start with. It's all about the internal stress that is created by different temperatures. You will find the same problem with welding cast iron. Lots of preheat and post heat will definitely help prevent cracking.
TIG is an electric flame and can be controlled using similar techniques to Gas welding. With gas welding you have to move the torch closer or farther away to control the heat, while TIG welding heat is traditionally controlled via a foot pedal or manually pulsing the weld. They both have their advantages and disadvantage but both types of welding will require time to learn.
TIG welding requires proper tungsten tip maintenance and the additional cost of the inert gas cylinder. TIG welding also requires a higher shade of eye protection via the welding helmet, while gas welding requires a lower shade of eye protection. TIG welding requires a higher level of UV skin protection, while Gas welding is not a concern in respect to UV burns. Stick welding would have the highest level of UV concern. There are lots of factors and differences. Each type of welding has a similar learning curve in order to get proficient.
If you want that stack of dimes look, you are going to have to work hard to develop your skills. That is why I stated before, that if you only had a few small projects and did not want to spend a thousand or more on equipment, financially it makes more sense to hire out the work.
The bottom line is Do You Trust Your Own Welding Skills? If this is an ornamental/artistic project then it's not so important, but if the project was to be rolling down the highway with lives at risk, you might want to consider why welders get certified.
I don't weld for a living but I have been welding for over 30 years on all sorts of projects. I took the time to learn and spent plenty of money on a variety of welding machines. I have ten of them in total. My latest welding machine is very controversial as it works on water as a fuel. I like it very much and find that it does what I need it to do. It does not require any form of compressed gas cylinder, compressor or tungsten tips. Each of my welding machines is good at something but not good at everything. It all comes down to spending the time and money to get proficient at what you want to do.
silentneko wrote: is gas or TIG easier to learn?
- AKweldshop
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Very good info, Werkspace.
Thanks.
~John
Thanks.
~John
Just a couple welders and a couple of big hammers and torches.
Men in dirty jeans built this country, while men in clean suits have destroyed it.
Trump/Carson 2016-2024
Men in dirty jeans built this country, while men in clean suits have destroyed it.
Trump/Carson 2016-2024
Arizona SA200
- Arizona SA200
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[quote="WerkSpace"]
Each of my welding machines is good at something but not good at everything.
No single machine will ever in my lifetime be able to do all processes comparative to single process machines. That being said, there are some that do very well. Going with the tig process (once you get the learning curve down) is a lot of fun. You can weld all kinds of different alloys with it and you can braze too. If the machine you chose doesn't have the amount of heat input you need, look in to helium for shielding gas.
Each of my welding machines is good at something but not good at everything.
No single machine will ever in my lifetime be able to do all processes comparative to single process machines. That being said, there are some that do very well. Going with the tig process (once you get the learning curve down) is a lot of fun. You can weld all kinds of different alloys with it and you can braze too. If the machine you chose doesn't have the amount of heat input you need, look in to helium for shielding gas.
I stack dimes for a living so i can stack dollars for a paycheck.
Some additional info on inert shielding gases. http://www.aws.org/wj/amwelder/11-00/fact_sheet.html
http://www.esabna.com/us/en/education/k ... uminum.cfm
http://www.esabna.com/us/en/education/k ... uminum.cfm
Arizona SA200 wrote:If the machine you chose doesn't have the amount of heat input you need, look in to helium for shielding gas.
Arizona SA200
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Thanks for the info Werkspace. Sometimes its these little tricks that seasoned welders know that can help you.WerkSpace wrote:Some additional info on inert shielding gases. http://www.aws.org/wj/amwelder/11-00/fact_sheet.html
http://www.esabna.com/us/en/education/k ... uminum.cfmArizona SA200 wrote:If the machine you chose doesn't have the amount of heat input you need, look in to helium for shielding gas.
I stack dimes for a living so i can stack dollars for a paycheck.
silentneko
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Ok what if I abandon welding aluminum? I am now thinking about getting an inexpensive machine just to try out TIGing on stainless steel and standard steel. If I find I have a talent for it I may go full blast on a decent setup later on.
My projects are a few trailer brackets, maybe a light bar for my roof rack, and a stand for my boat. The stainless will need to be decent quality since it will be near saltwater on occasion, but thin gauge to keep the weight down. The rest will be normal steel up to 1/8".
What kind of setup will I need? Do you still need AC, or is DC enough? Still argon for shielding? Thanks.
My projects are a few trailer brackets, maybe a light bar for my roof rack, and a stand for my boat. The stainless will need to be decent quality since it will be near saltwater on occasion, but thin gauge to keep the weight down. The rest will be normal steel up to 1/8".
What kind of setup will I need? Do you still need AC, or is DC enough? Still argon for shielding? Thanks.
It sounds to me like welding will be an expensive hobby for you?
You are going to need to practice and for what you want to weld,
arc welding will get you there for the least amount of money.
What I am about to tell you next can be very dangerous and should be done with great care.
Have you ever tried welding with car batteries? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV5oLPLUzrM
Batteries are like bombs that can go off from sparks reaching their vapors. Keep them covered if you try this.
And make sure that they have time to vent off after they have been recently charged up. This minimizes the gases.
With a few batteries and some jumper cables, you can weld what you want, with the least expense.
Be very aware that welding is dangerous and batteries can be very explosive, and they are full of acid.
Have fun, play safe and practice, practice, practice. Start with scrap metal first and get good at it.
You are going to need to practice and for what you want to weld,
arc welding will get you there for the least amount of money.
What I am about to tell you next can be very dangerous and should be done with great care.
Have you ever tried welding with car batteries? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV5oLPLUzrM
Batteries are like bombs that can go off from sparks reaching their vapors. Keep them covered if you try this.
And make sure that they have time to vent off after they have been recently charged up. This minimizes the gases.
With a few batteries and some jumper cables, you can weld what you want, with the least expense.
Be very aware that welding is dangerous and batteries can be very explosive, and they are full of acid.
Have fun, play safe and practice, practice, practice. Start with scrap metal first and get good at it.
silentneko wrote:Ok what if I abandon welding aluminum? I am now thinking about getting an inexpensive machine just to try out TIGing on stainless steel and standard steel. If I find I have a talent for it I may go full blast on a decent setup later on.
My projects are a few trailer brackets, maybe a light bar for my roof rack, and a stand for my boat. The stainless will need to be decent quality since it will be near saltwater on occasion, but thin gauge to keep the weight down. The rest will be normal steel up to 1/8". What kind of setup will I need? Do you still need AC, or is DC enough? Still argon for shielding? Thanks.
- AKweldshop
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Werkspace,
I think that battery BS is kind of the last ditch effort for welding.
I would buy any other welder out there before I would resort to this.
~John
I think that battery BS is kind of the last ditch effort for welding.
I would buy any other welder out there before I would resort to this.
~John
Just a couple welders and a couple of big hammers and torches.
Men in dirty jeans built this country, while men in clean suits have destroyed it.
Trump/Carson 2016-2024
Men in dirty jeans built this country, while men in clean suits have destroyed it.
Trump/Carson 2016-2024
Silent. Why don't you hit up a community college course so you can screw around with several types of equipment and find out for yourself before buying anything more than a helmet, a shirt and a pair of gloves. ?
- AKweldshop
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Good advice.Antorcha wrote:Silent. Why don't you hit up a community college course so you can screw around with several types of equipment and find out for yourself before buying anything more than a helmet, a shirt and a pair of gloves. ?
Or you could spend several days watching Jody's and Lanse's videos.
~John
Just a couple welders and a couple of big hammers and torches.
Men in dirty jeans built this country, while men in clean suits have destroyed it.
Trump/Carson 2016-2024
Men in dirty jeans built this country, while men in clean suits have destroyed it.
Trump/Carson 2016-2024
John, I agree that it would be a last ditch effort for welding.
I've tried the battery method a few times and it has a very smooth arc.
It does work but as you say, it's mostly for emergency repairs.
When nothing else is available, the batteries will get the job done.
I've tried the battery method a few times and it has a very smooth arc.
It does work but as you say, it's mostly for emergency repairs.
When nothing else is available, the batteries will get the job done.
AKweldshop wrote:Werkspace,
I think that battery BS is kind of the last ditch effort for welding.
I would buy any other welder out there before I would resort to this.~John