[Boomer63]

What would you consider to be the most important aspects of welding, across all the process? I would put 'angles' as my number one, because no matter with SMAW, GTAW, GMAW or what ever, correct angle is so, so important.

I know we all have our things! I need as much input as possible! I want to stress to my students what are the absolutely most important 'facts' that they need to know about welding. I was originally going to isolate these by process, but it seems to me that most ideas transcend process and are very general.

I want to stream line down to a few basics, then spend a year pounding those basics into their heads. A 'dirty little secret' that I introduce them to as they near the mid point of the course, is that all welding is pretty much the same; a puddle is a puddle is a puddle.

They have to learn what they have to learn, but I don't want to burden them down with loads of crap that they will never use and don't care about; stuff no one cares about - OR - stuff that you will need to know as you get very advanced.

So guys, what do you think? What are one to six basic facts that every welder needs to know, as they are coming out of school?
Thanks!
Gary

[exnailpounder]

If they are going to do their own fab, then good fitup is very important. Second would be clean metal. That means shiny bright clean, no matter what process. I know sometimes these things can't be achieved but I think if you learn the right way to do things in the first place, making adjustments for less than ideal conditions later becomes easier. Gosh Boomer, there is just so much to know about all the litle nuances of each process that it would be hard to write them all down. To put as fine a point on it as I can, learning pride and craftsmanship before undertaking anything else would be a good start. Don't know if thats what you were looking for but it's my 2 cents. Even though I an just a lowly repairman, quality comes first. This should be a really good thread when the pros come through.

[WerkSpace]

I would put SAFETY as number one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tt3EYIAeTsA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DP5l9yYt-g

What would you consider to be the most important aspects of welding, across all the process? I would put 'angles' as my number one, because no matter with SMAW, GTAW, GMAW or what ever, correct angle is so, so important.

[Boomer63]

[quote="exnailpounder"]If they are going to do their own fab, then good fitup is very important. Second would be clean metal. That means shiny bright clean, no matter what process. I know sometimes these things can't be achieved but I think if you learn the right way to do things in the first place, making adjustments for less than ideal conditions later becomes easier. Gosh Boomer, there is just so much to know about all the litle nuances of each process that it would be hard to write them all down. To put as fine a point on it as I can, learning pride and craftsmanship before undertaking anything else would be a good start. Don't know if thats what you were looking for but it's my 2 cents. Even though I an just a lowly repairman, quality comes first. This should be a really good thread when the pros come through.[/quote
Thank you, EX! I am afraid I did not do a great job of wording this. I am looking for 'general welding principals'; ideas, concepts or rules that apply in a general sense across all processes.

However, reading your comment makes me think about another thread for (something like) general fabrication/fit up 'rules' ... or something like that.

I have studied a lot of schools and have found that most of what the students are taught they don't retain. Therefore, if I need them to retain a few items, what are the most important ones! As related to actual welding ...

Thank you again! I always appreciator your input!
Gary

[Boomer63]

I would put SAFETY as number one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tt3EYIAeTsA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DP5l9yYt-g

What would you consider to be the most important aspects of welding, across all the process? I would put 'angles' as my number one, because no matter with SMAW, GTAW, GMAW or what ever, correct angle is so, so important.

Thank you Werk! I already use the exploding drum video in my class, but I love the guy with the exploding oxy/fuel bottles who gets blow off the building.

Safety is one of those things that is stressed daily and constantly weaved into the program. But you have a point ...

I am looking for specifically welding 'rules' or ideas; But you are right in that safety can not be stressed enough!

Thank again for the video link!
Gary

[airrj]

Gary,

I know that you are looking for welding specific techniques but I have to second the safety topic, and I am glad to hear that your program is drilling the message into them.

I am a noob with a moderate amount of experience time. What I find myself doing most, or wishing I did after I screwed up, is looking at the joint and visualizing how I am going to have to move my arms to get that correct angle that you talked about. As you see Jody do in many of his videos, a dry run to make sure that his hand placement with work to prop through the entire weld. My consistent biggest mistake that I catch myself doing, sometimes even after I do a dry run, is that I find myself way out of position midway through a weld. I will be concentrating on the puddle, the motion, etc, and then I see that I have the gun/torch/stick laid way down at a bad angle.

So I guess that I am just saying angle is important like you said, but for me I have to concentrate ahead of time to really focus to get my motion correct to keep myself out of trouble. I have started making three specific dry passes for each weld that I do. First to confirm that my hand placement or propping is acceptable, the second pass is to focus on how I have to move to keep a proper angle, and the third to put it all together and try to build some muscle memory for the joint.

I see that this become more second nature with experience, but for someone learning, and for the person like myself that may go two weeks without welding something I think the mental exercise ahead of the weld bead is a big help.

Thanks.
R.J.

[WerkSpace]

Getting the angle right is important. Try doing it with flippers...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE4Dtl2IBJo

What would you consider to be the most important aspects of welding, across all the process? I would put 'angles' as my number one, because no matter with SMAW, GTAW, GMAW or what ever, correct angle is so, so important.

[Boomer63]

Gary,

I know that you are looking for welding specific techniques but I have to second the safety topic, and I am glad to hear that your program is drilling the message into them.

I am a noob with a moderate amount of experience time. What I find myself doing most, or wishing I did after I screwed up, is looking at the joint and visualizing how I am going to have to move my arms to get that correct angle that you talked about. As you see Jody do in many of his videos, a dry run to make sure that his hand placement with work to prop through the entire weld. My consistent biggest mistake that I catch myself doing, sometimes even after I do a dry run, is that I find myself way out of position midway through a weld. I will be concentrating on the puddle, the motion, etc, and then I see that I have the gun/torch/stick laid way down at a bad angle.

So I guess that I am just saying angle is important like you said, but for me I have to concentrate ahead of time to really focus to get my motion correct to keep myself out of trouble. I have started making three specific dry passes for each weld that I do. First to confirm that my hand placement or propping is acceptable, the second pass is to focus on how I have to move to keep a proper angle, and the third to put it all together and try to build some muscle memory for the joint.

I see that this become more second nature with experience, but for someone learning, and for the person like myself that may go two weeks without welding something I think the mental exercise ahead of the weld bead is a big help.

Thanks.
R.J.

Thank you, RJ! Hearing from a "noob" is especially important to me because I just don't remember what that experience was like! You have given me something that I must incorporate into my 'lesson' .. the idea that ... how would I put it? That you need to be mentally prepared to move your body in physical space to get the job done? No ... too complex.

Need to think about this, but content that is important!
Thanks,
Gary

[Poland308]

I would put fit up and cleaning in the same category. Then I would say arc length. Because you can fudge a lot with angle (more on some processes than others ).

[Otto Nobedder]

Gary, here's my two cents (so far),

All joints shrink when welded. The fit must anticipate this.

You can tack your ell dead-on 90*, weld it out, and wonder why it's now 88*. The short side of the ell shrunk just as much as the long side, but with less metal in the radius to shrink, it drew inward.

You can cut your butt pieces to print length minus takeout for the gap, forget shrinkage, and end up 1/16" short per joint.

You can weld a tab to a piece of angle, and see the angle go from straight to bowed at the new joint.

Shrinkage must be compensated for in the fit, and this is learned by feel and experience. An awareness of this on the job will prevent many headache fixes.

Perhaps not the most critical thing, but to be made aware of it in school beats learning it through thirty cut-outs with your new boss breathing down your neck.

Steve S

[paul_s]

I think for me, the biggest issue was being able to see the puddle and the material that I was welding. The place where I first started had strong sunlight shining in and was coming to the back of my helmet. It wasn't until I did some welding after sundown that I 'saw the light' so to speak. I was really struggling before then. I was able to help by changing the settings on the helmet and using a towel clipped on the back to block the back light. It made things much better to allow me to improve my skills. It's been quite a while ago and in a different location. Bottom line..... if you can't see it.. you can't weld it.

[Rick_H]

A little off topic but how do your students practice? At a bench, clean metal etc? I was in a class once doing pipe welding and the young welder in the booth behind kept saying how easy this was... I leaned over and told him yes this is easy, were sitting at a bench with test coupons. Real world is laying on your back, awkward body position on a dirty floor, rusty or old material and every minute your down is $1000s or tens of thousands of dollars. I think all students need to be smacked with some real world before they head out.

I second the fab and fit up, Otto is dead nuts on. It took me years to understand how to get things square while welding, accounting for pull, shrinkage, bowing etc. I made a frame for a cabinet tonight 72" x 29" x 12" I was 1/16" out of square and it bothered me...my co-workers just laughed. I made everything in an hour, mig welded, with a 24" square, tape measure and 12" speed square.

Reading the puddle is very important, it tells you nearly everything you need to know about how your welding, angle, feed, arc length etc.

[WerkSpace]

I found this video on youtube about reading the puddle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlXfGdSNfYc

Reading the puddle is very important, it tells you nearly everything you need to know about how your welding, angle, feed, arc length etc.

[MosquitoMoto]

As a noob myself, fit up, without a doubt.

It's like painting. If I do my prep properly, all is well and often the welding part is then almost easy. If I take short cuts in fit up, I spend my weld time compensating for that.

If I confuse my painting prep with my welding prep...then I'm really in trouble.



Kym

[Rick_H]

I found this video on youtube about reading the puddle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlXfGdSNfYc

Reading the puddle is very important, it tells you nearly everything you need to know about how your welding, angle, feed, arc length etc.

Interesting little teaching video there...

[motox]

learning how to weld out of position.
once you overcome learning clean material, good fit up,
proper angle and arc length the next hurdle is welding
way out of your seated comfort zone. i still fight that
issue often.
craig

[Boomer63]

Thank you so much for your replies! What amazes me most is the difference between responses from noobs and experienced welders. This tells me that I really need to pay more attention to the noobs out here, to get a real feel for what they are going through. For me, those beginner days were 35+ years ago ... and I can't remember how much beer I drank last night!
Gary

[Boomer63]

Gary, here's my two cents (so far),

All joints shrink when welded. The fit must anticipate this.

You can tack your ell dead-on 90*, weld it out, and wonder why it's now 88*. The short side of the ell shrunk just as much as the long side, but with less metal in the radius to shrink, it drew inward.

You can cut your butt pieces to print length minus takeout for the gap, forget shrinkage, and end up 1/16" short per joint.

You can weld a tab to a piece of angle, and see the angle go from straight to bowed at the new joint.

Shrinkage must be compensated for in the fit, and this is learned by feel and experience. An awareness of this on the job will prevent many headache fixes.

Perhaps not the most critical thing, but to be made aware of it in school beats learning it through thirty cut-outs with your new boss breathing down your neck.
Thanks, Steve. What you are talking about is sort of like my "25%" of what it takes to be a real welder/fabricator:
25% actual welding skill
25% metallurgy, choosing proper filler metals, machine set up and why, etc
25% fit up and layout; knowing what the metal is going to do and why, when you begin to manipulate it
25% professionalism; knowing how to act, think, speak and behave like a pro
Gary

Steve S

[Boomer63]

A little off topic but how do your students practice? At a bench, clean metal etc? I was in a class once doing pipe welding and the young welder in the booth behind kept saying how easy this was... I leaned over and told him yes this is easy, were sitting at a bench with test coupons. Real world is laying on your back, awkward body position on a dirty floor, rusty or old material and every minute your down is $1000s or tens of thousands of dollars. I think all students need to be smacked with some real world before they head out.

I second the fab and fit up, Otto is dead nuts on. It took me years to understand how to get things square while welding, accounting for pull, shrinkage, bowing etc. I made a frame for a cabinet tonight 72" x 29" x 12" I was 1/16" out of square and it bothered me...my co-workers just laughed. I made everything in an hour, mig welded, with a 24" square, tape measure and 12" speed square.

Reading the puddle is very important, it tells you nearly everything you need to know about how your welding, angle, feed, arc length etc.

I start with giving them every advantage possible. They need to be as comfortable as they can be so they can get started. I move them along fast! They WILL pass a 3G 3/8" plate test within the first nine/ten weeks, of 16 - 20 hour weeks - in addition to learning everything else they need to learn. They know that being too comfortable is not the 'real world', and some ask me about it. I tell them that they WILL grow into welders who can handle out of position welding.

The Technical Certificate Program here is five, eight week sections. About midpoint through section four, I have them spend a week or so on what I call 'junk welding'. This is thick to thin material, rusty, nasty material, very out of position, filling insane gaps, doing wild and strange manipulations, etc. It helps to make them adaptable.

I sure ain't perfect and my program is growing!
Gary

[Rick_H]

A little off topic but how do your students practice? At a bench, clean metal etc? I was in a class once doing pipe welding and the young welder in the booth behind kept saying how easy this was... I leaned over and told him yes this is easy, were sitting at a bench with test coupons. Real world is laying on your back, awkward body position on a dirty floor, rusty or old material and every minute your down is $1000s or tens of thousands of dollars. I think all students need to be smacked with some real world before they head out.

I second the fab and fit up, Otto is dead nuts on. It took me years to understand how to get things square while welding, accounting for pull, shrinkage, bowing etc. I made a frame for a cabinet tonight 72" x 29" x 12" I was 1/16" out of square and it bothered me...my co-workers just laughed. I made everything in an hour, mig welded, with a 24" square, tape measure and 12" speed square.

Reading the puddle is very important, it tells you nearly everything you need to know about how your welding, angle, feed, arc length etc.

I start with giving them every advantage possible. They need to be as comfortable as they can be so they can get started. I move them along fast! They WILL pass a 3G 3/8" plate test within the first nine/ten weeks, of 16 - 20 hour weeks - in addition to learning everything else they need to learn. They know that being too comfortable is not the 'real world', and some ask me about it. I tell them that they WILL grow into welders who can handle out of position welding.

The Technical Certificate Program here is five, eight week sections. About midpoint through section four, I have them spend a week or so on what I call 'junk welding'. This is thick to thin material, rusty, nasty material, very out of position, filling insane gaps, doing wild and strange manipulations, etc. It helps to make them adaptable.

I sure ain't perfect and my program is growing!
Gary

Awesome, sounds like you have a nice program. Filling gaps is an art, I find many guys do not know how to go about that. Fit up is everything but in the real world nothing is ever perfect.

[Bill Beauregard]

Gary,

I know that you are looking for welding specific techniques but I have to second the safety topic, and I am glad to hear that your program is drilling the message into them.

I am a noob with a moderate amount of experience time. What I find myself doing most, or wishing I did after I screwed up, is looking at the joint and visualizing how I am going to have to move my arms to get that correct angle that you talked about. As you see Jody do in many of his videos, a dry run to make sure that his hand placement with work to prop through the entire weld. My consistent biggest mistake that I catch myself doing, sometimes even after I do a dry run, is that I find myself way out of position midway through a weld. I will be concentrating on the puddle, the motion, etc, and then I see that I have the gun/torch/stick laid way down at a bad angle.

So I guess that I am just saying angle is important like you said, but for me I have to concentrate ahead of time to really focus to get my motion correct to keep myself out of trouble. I have started making three specific dry passes for each weld that I do. First to confirm that my hand placement or propping is acceptable, the second pass is to focus on how I have to move to keep a proper angle, and the third to put it all together and try to build some muscle memory for the joint.

I see that this become more second nature with experience, but for someone learning, and for the person like myself that may go two weeks without welding something I think the mental exercise ahead of the weld bead is a big help.

Thanks.
R.J.

Thank you, RJ! Hearing from a "noob" is especially important to me because I just don't remember what that experience was like! You have given me something that I must incorporate into my 'lesson' .. the idea that ... how would I put it? That you need to be mentally prepared to move your body in physical space to get the job done? No ... too complex.

Need to think about this, but content that is important!
Thanks,
Gary

My father would have summed that concept up as "Get your a$$ behind you!"

[subwayrocket]

I'm a noob . With a few months under my belt, fwiw , I think penetration, heat input, cleanliness and porosity are very important . I read and studied on my own for about a year before ever striking an arc. With a few months seat time now and mistakes, I understand more how important those things are, because sometimes I can make what looks like a good weld, but those things have effects that may not cause a problem until later.
Here's another more "general" learning thing, I also think that it's important for someone that is totally new and never welded to understand that it takes seat time, and NOT to get discouraged when they keep making a mess.
Analogy: I ride/race dirt bikes , also play guitar for many years ... things like racing, Guitar, TIG are HARD , not everyone can do it, and there is a learning curve . People buy a dirt bike, a guitar, a TIG welder ...they need to understand that you will be bad at it for a while...and this is normal .

[nathan]

A little off topic but how do your students practice? At a bench, clean metal etc? I was in a class once doing pipe welding and the young welder in the booth behind kept saying how easy this was... I leaned over and told him yes this is easy, were sitting at a bench with test coupons. Real world is laying on your back, awkward body position on a dirty floor, rusty or old material and every minute your down is $1000s or tens of thousands of dollars. I think all students need to be smacked with some real world before they head out.

I second the fab and fit up, Otto is dead nuts on. It took me years to understand how to get things square while welding, accounting for pull, shrinkage, bowing etc. I made a frame for a cabinet tonight 72" x 29" x 12" I was 1/16" out of square and it bothered me...my co-workers just laughed. I made everything in an hour, mig welded, with a 24" square, tape measure and 12" speed square.

Reading the puddle is very important, it tells you nearly everything you need to know about how your welding, angle, feed, arc length etc.

Take away their chairs for a day. The boss likes to see you standing, it looks better and you'll be more productive.

Things I wish I learned in school: warpage, shrinkage, fitting.

Help them find out the cost of doing business. This shit ain't cheap, and they need to know that. My shop is worth double what I paid for it because I bought used, but it still wasn't cheap. Help them find out the cost of doing a job, and how to quote a job.

Help open their minds about the way the "old hands" did things. Those guys welded aluminum with oxy/ace, for crying out loud. You can stick weld ally, and fcaw stainless. Try telling that to some people I graduated with, and they will use that to discredit you.

Make sure they know that a bunch of the old guys they'll be working with are assholes. But if you can take their shit and learn how to give it back, those guys will teach you a LOT!

Work ethic matters. Like Steve said, its not all about actually welding. There's so much to know that these guys that have been doing it for thirty years, still learn new things all the time.

[Otto Nobedder]

Wow!

For such a seemingly simple question, this has become a very interesting and informative conversation! I suppose, like anything else in welding, if you ask twelve people you'll get thirteen opinions.

Keep it coming!

Steve S

[MosquitoMoto]

I'm a noob . With a few months under my belt, fwiw , I think penetration, heat input, cleanliness and porosity are very important . I read and studied on my own for about a year before ever striking an arc. With a few months seat time now and mistakes, I understand more how important those things are, because sometimes I can make what looks like a good weld, but those things have effects that may not cause a problem until later.
Here's another more "general" learning thing, I also think that it's important for someone that is totally new and never welded to understand that it takes seat time, and NOT to get discouraged when they keep making a mess.
Analogy: I ride/race dirt bikes , also play guitar for many years ... things like racing, Guitar, TIG are HARD , not everyone can do it, and there is a learning curve . People buy a dirt bike, a guitar, a TIG welder ...they need to understand that you will be bad at it for a while...and this is normal .

Wow...this is really something because it is exactly how I explained it to my motorcycling friends and even my wife when my machine first arrived.

They all were excited that I finally had 'a machine that could weld anything' but I had to manage their expectations before they started handing work to me. And to do that I said "Learning TIG is like learning a musical instrument. It is difficult and takes a lot of practise, so don't expect me to be doing anything really useful for at least a couple of months."

That meant I was left alone to practise for awhile and that is a good thing. I am actually surprised I am already making useful (no pretty) aluminium repairs.

I practise my arse off and I also keep a very detailed written log of what I do. I have very little memory (brain injury) so the written log is endlessly helpful. It is great reference for when I start up on a particular material/tube/plate...I have my previous experience to refer to and build on.

My little log of notes is also encouraging...it is peppered with small victories and revelations that help encourage me on those days I feel I am going backwards.


Kym