I need to get one for both short-run production and prototyping for my smallish shop. Small parts, and little need for cutting over 1/4" thickness. Not too worried about cut speed, but more concerned with the cost-per-part that the different machines provide, all other things being equal. Been looking at the Wazer on the water jet side, and the plasma cam for the plasma side.
Any thoughts on which overall system type would provide less hassle, less cost of ownership, and higher production value?
As far as I know water jet is king of the castle. That being said I'm thinking of the industrial huge water jets. They can cut material that plasma and lazer cannot cut due to poisonous off gassing (think plastics). Price is higher up front but lower cost to operate down the the road.
The other thing to think about is that if you don't already have a plasma, but you want one, you could go plasma route and then if you needed to use the machine off the table you have it.
The other thing to think about is that if you don't already have a plasma, but you want one, you could go plasma route and then if you needed to use the machine off the table you have it.
I did a fair bit of reading on the Wazer when they were first rolling it out and not a lot since, so things may have changed. But from what I gathered at the time, the machine was pretty limited in capabilities and the total cost to run was quite high due to the consumables it used. The garnet cutting media was single use and the pump seemed to have a limited lifetime and was not cheap to replace. The garnet costs about 80 bucks for a 55 pound bucket, and that lasts for 2.75 hours of cutting time. Cutting is slow on metals, so you will go through a lot of this stuff. It is not fast cutting in metals.
That said, the up front cost is significant but not not stupid crazy high, so if it does the work you need and you can fold the running cost into the parts you sell, it just might fill a spot in your workflow.
The large industrial water jets are large up front cost and significant cost to maintain and run (big power demands due to high HP pumps etc) but as stated above are super versatile, fast, and can cut almost anything.
For low up front and operating cost, I'm guessing it's pretty hard to beat a CNC plasma table. There are so many to choose from out there now. If you don't need to cut non-metals and a plasma cutter will hold the tolerances you need, it's probably the quickest and cheapest way to get started. That's probably particularly so for a small shop that will not have to keep a machine running all the time to keep it paying for itself. For what a Wazer costs, you can set yourself up with a pretty killer plasma table and cutter, I think.
Just some food for thought...
That said, the up front cost is significant but not not stupid crazy high, so if it does the work you need and you can fold the running cost into the parts you sell, it just might fill a spot in your workflow.
The large industrial water jets are large up front cost and significant cost to maintain and run (big power demands due to high HP pumps etc) but as stated above are super versatile, fast, and can cut almost anything.
For low up front and operating cost, I'm guessing it's pretty hard to beat a CNC plasma table. There are so many to choose from out there now. If you don't need to cut non-metals and a plasma cutter will hold the tolerances you need, it's probably the quickest and cheapest way to get started. That's probably particularly so for a small shop that will not have to keep a machine running all the time to keep it paying for itself. For what a Wazer costs, you can set yourself up with a pretty killer plasma table and cutter, I think.
Just some food for thought...
Only business I know who use that water jet also have plasmas and lasers. They only use the water jet for very thin material, especially small parts that would be affected by the heat or too small to clean up. They use the lasers for the bulk of there work. Gives precision and speed with a very clean cut. The plasmas are for 1/8 or thicker and stuff that doesn’t need cleaned up much. I realize that plasma cuts pretty clean by my standards, but the people who justify a water jet have reasons foe accepting the higher operating costs.
I have more questions than answers
Josh
Josh
Don't forget that plasma cutters leave a nitride layer that needs to be removed before welding. Parts are not good-to-go for welding straight out of the plasma cutter. They will typically require some degree of of grinding and cleaning. Also, water jets are capable of accuracy to 5 thousandths of an inch while plasma cutters are only good to 30 thousandths of an inch. Esab estimates the cost to operate a plasma at $15/hour vs $30/hour for a water jet. But then you have to also include the cost of secondary machining/preparation that will be required for plasma cut parts.
It's really not apples to apple when you compare the two. A lot is going to depend on the tolerances you require out of the parts, etc.
It's really not apples to apple when you compare the two. A lot is going to depend on the tolerances you require out of the parts, etc.
Multimatic 255
This is really the essence of a decision like this. It's sort of not just a "plasma vs Water jet" thing, there are lots of factors to consider. While they both cut shapes out of sheet material, they are very different tools with different strengths and weaknesses and costs. I think it really comes down to what your requirements are and what your budget looks like. These sort of things are all about the various tradeoffs and those vary from person to person and situation to situation.Poland308 wrote:..... but the people who justify a water jet have reasons foe accepting the higher operating costs.
Interesting discussion anyhow.
Thanks for all the info and feedback. Starting to lean back towards CNC plasma after some of the input here. Anybody used these crossfire tables from Langmuir or done business with them? Looking at their larger model. Haven’t heard much if anything about them, though.
https://www.langmuirsystems.com/pro
https://www.langmuirsystems.com/pro
This guy did a nice video review of that table. Pretty nice.Spartan wrote:Thanks for all the info and feedback. Starting to lean back towards CNC plasma after some of the input here. Anybody used these crossfire tables from Langmuir or done business with them? Looking at their larger model. Haven’t heard much if anything about them, though.
https://www.langmuirsystems.com/pro
The big takeaway I got from that video was that this table he bought was the second one in six months. He bought the predecessor to it which he wasn't completely thrilled with only six months before. So obviously this software and this table are notably superior to the previous version.
Of course it is the internet and you can barely trust anybody , but he does seem like an actual user who is just out there trying to do some work and make a buck.
About the only thing there that bothers me in the video is, I've done rather a lot of work on motion control systems. Write down to designing the drives themselves. The motors he is showing there are stepper motors with no position feedback. There's no encoder on that so those Motors get commanded to a location but if it does not get there, all bets are off on the position. How often does that happen? That has a lot to do with how much load you place on the motor. Without making this a big discussion, suffice to say I would sooner see a motion feedback Servo motor handling the positioning rather than a stepper motor. I'll leave it at that. That is not to say I don't use steppers everyday, I do and in fact I rely on one for the Cash Cow machine in my shop. But there is a Servo motor on the Shelf with the controllers waiting to be installed to replace it because of the minor drawbacks that it has. It does not owe anybody anything however, that motor has made a lot of money.
Of course it is the internet and you can barely trust anybody , but he does seem like an actual user who is just out there trying to do some work and make a buck.
About the only thing there that bothers me in the video is, I've done rather a lot of work on motion control systems. Write down to designing the drives themselves. The motors he is showing there are stepper motors with no position feedback. There's no encoder on that so those Motors get commanded to a location but if it does not get there, all bets are off on the position. How often does that happen? That has a lot to do with how much load you place on the motor. Without making this a big discussion, suffice to say I would sooner see a motion feedback Servo motor handling the positioning rather than a stepper motor. I'll leave it at that. That is not to say I don't use steppers everyday, I do and in fact I rely on one for the Cash Cow machine in my shop. But there is a Servo motor on the Shelf with the controllers waiting to be installed to replace it because of the minor drawbacks that it has. It does not owe anybody anything however, that motor has made a lot of money.