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BugHunter
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Oscar wrote:But once you load up the PP300 with 045 solid wire, and run it full throttle, in pulsed spray with the appropriate gas mixture, man o man, let me tell you, nothing else in the 300A class comes close from what I've seen; not even Miller. It is effortless in it's execution. Shame you can't sample that. :)
Probably so. I got a pretty good idea with the 220 just running .030 wire, it was hard to believe it would lay that much wire down. It's one thing to just pump the wire out, but to do it smoothly and lay a clean bead with no massive splatter and a beautiful weld pool, I wasn't expecting that. I can pretty well imagine what that would look like with 045 wire.
Oscar wrote:On the Pro Pulse 300 you're paying for it's power supply mostly. It is 1/3-Φ capable, and is much more robust since it is also used in more powerful machines from the Stel line-up. It also has many more synergic programs and has manual adjustable double-pulse parameters.
I'm cheap! I want my cake and eat it too.

I figured if I did not choose a multi-process machine I could get similar Mig features out of Miller for less money. That doesn't appear to be so. Miller seems to have a huge hole in their lineup between the MM255 and the Inversion 352. Maybe if I hit the lottery an Inversion would end up on my wishlist but as it stands now, the PP220 makes a lot more sense for me if I wanted to replace my Mig. The additional cost for the 300 amp capability, while replacing a welder I already almost never use, I would truly need my head examined.
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Well the 255 is a 300A-class machine, and isn't the Inversion 352 a 400A-class machine? If so, that's not too much of a spread.
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BugHunter
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Unless I misread the specs the mm255 is a 250 amp machine and the inversion 352 is a 400 amp or 375 amp machine. That's a big spread in my opinion.

If that is true it definitely avoids the range of the pp 300 MTS.
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Well if you consider the top amperage output regardless of duty cycle, the 255 is in what I would call the 300A class because it's output is right at the 300A mark. The inversion is in the 400A-class on 3-Φ, and in the 300A-class on 1-Φ. That's just my take on it if you disregard the duty cycle at the machine's peaks. If you consider equal duty cycle across the board, then it is open to a different interpretation once you start taking duty cycle into account. Different strokes for different folks. :)

Along those lines, the uniqueness of the power supplies of the PP200/220MTS and the PP300 make it punch above their weight class. In pulsed-spray programs, due in part to the uniqueness of that transfer method, the DSP microprocessor can effectively manipulate amperage output in a somewhat similar fashion to TIG, but without the need to rely solely on WFS the way traditional short-circuit MIG relies on it for steady-state amperage. This is because in pulsed-spray (on the HTP Pro Pulse MIGs; not all pulse MIGs are created equal ;)), the arc "on-time" is effectively "on" all the time, which allows the machine to manipulate the current output similar to TIG, but using the wire as the electrode, even if it is being consumed constantly as the droplets are being pinched off. The PP200/220MTS can exploit this scenario to dump up to 300A on the peak pulses in some programs, and the PP300 can dump up to 600A on the peak pulses in some programs. This is why they are sooo effortless in their execution of pulse. They doesn't play around. :) This is why I say that once you run them in pulsed-spray and witness the flawless execution, it's just like "wow, that was cool!", is about all you can say. :D
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sbaker56
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Millermatic 255 is a 350 amp max output machine actually, the Invision 352MPA is a 425 amp machine. Though I see Oscar posted while I was writing my reply and took into account certain things I didn't consider. Also as a side note the hottest I've ever welded was around 320-330 amps with .045 Dual Shield 7100 Ultra at 30 volts and 600 IPM. It was pretty much pull the trigger and hold on.

I have to admit It's easy as someone like me who is only familiar with pulse mig on aluminum to think of it in similar terms to pulse features on tig. That is to say, nice to have for certain applications if you know how to use it, but otherwise a way for newbies to hide their lack of skill. But I know It's almost another process in of itself, and enables doing things that simply wouldn't be possible without it. I would really love to see what kind of penetration you could get into a 3/8 plate with a larger machine like a MM250 or PP300
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Yea Miller has this thing that they do like to push the output of [some of] their machines, even if it is heading into 10% duty cycle territory. Great for the occasional heavy welding, but more susceptible to user-error and parts-degradation from being pushed to their limits should someone get carried away.

I've not needed to weld 3/8" plate with any of my MIGs, but I do have some 3/8" flat-bar. The PP300 is rated to 5/8" on steel, so I'm pretty sure 3/8" is a walk in the park for it. I'm pretty sure it's doable on the PP200 as well, except I would need to load up 035 wire and use the 030-pulse program with added voltage and a nice "hot" Ar-CO₂-O₂ mix 8-)
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sbaker56
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Reason I'm curious is because every single time I've done a cut and etch on dual shield, I've been disappointed with what I saw. I'm sure user error probably played a role. It's an established process trusted by those more qualified than I am. I'm just saying it has it's flaws and requires a whole different spool of wire to use. So I could see pulse simply being the superior option for welding out of position.
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sbaker56 wrote:Reason I'm curious is because every single time I've done a cut and etch on dual shield, I've been disappointed with what I saw. I'm sure user error probably played a role. It's an established process trusted by those more qualified than I am. I'm just saying it has it's flaws and requires a whole different spool of wire to use. So I could see pulse simply being the superior option for welding out of position.
Interesting you mentioned dual shield. I've just about nearly perfected my own "program" to be able to run gas-shielded flux core on pulsed-spray, by hijack'ing one of the other pulse programs, and using a very specific Ar-CO₂-O₂ mix, and the results were :shock: As far as I know, I'm the only person in the world even experimenting with this stuff. :lol:
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cj737
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Oscar wrote:
Interesting you mentioned dual shield. I've just about nearly perfected my own "program" to be able to run gas-shielded flux core on pulsed-spray, by hijack'ing one of the other pulse programs, and using a very specific Ar-CO₂-O₂ mix, and the results were :shock: As far as I know, I'm the only person in the world even experimenting with this stuff. :lol:
Seems counter intuitive. Dual shield is used mostly in structural applications where voltage and penetration is very high. Spray mode is never a problem in flat and horizontal positions. You won’t run spray overhead or vertical because either dual shield or hard wire will be the selected and approved process. So why pulse? Pulse is generally used to control heat input, not a concern in structural.

Hell, if you want pulse spray, just use hard wire. Already dozens of approved processes for it.
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cj737 wrote:Seems counter intuitive. Dual shield is used mostly in structural applications where voltage and penetration is very high. Spray mode is never a problem in flat and horizontal positions. You won’t run spray overhead or vertical because either dual shield or hard wire will be the selected and approved process. So why pulse? Pulse is generally used to control heat input, not a concern in structural.

Hell, if you want pulse spray, just use hard wire. Already dozens of approved processes for it.
I don't disagree with where and when dual shield is primarily used, but I do disagree with the view of pulse being solely used to control heat input with a wire-feed process. Yes it does do that (control heat input), but it is not the only useful artifact that can be produced using the process.

Pulse in TIG, which is what I feel most people are familiar with, does indeed reduce heat via dropping the current down to a back-ground, lower current that reduces the heat input via lesser amperage for a portion of the pulse period. I know you know this, so I'm only stating it for the purpose of emphasizing the difference in how my pulse MIGs utilize pulse. In my pulse MIGs, there is of course a lower, background current/voltage happening for a specific time length, but the high-side is where it differs from TIG; in TIG the main welding amperage, the high portion is set at the machine by the user; in other words the welding machine will not increase this for you under any circumstance without user-intervention. Foot-pedal control aside, that is how much current is delivered. In my pulse MIGs, from the talks I've had with techs at HTP and from the research I've done, the high side is higher than what the user-set WFS would normally deliver via a traditional short-circuit or axial spray-transfer method. In those methods, WFS determines the amperage (with other variables held constant) because they are "tied together". That is the key difference between traditional GMAW and GTAW. Thus, metal transfer in conventional GMAW cannot be regulated as independent of heat input.(1)

Example:
  • Using 045 solid wire, in short circuit, you typically see about 1A per 1 IPM of wire feed speed
    • So for the sake of simplicity, say 250 IPM gets you roughly 250A
In my pulse MIGs, the amperage is manipulated (increased to be specific) by exploiting the "on-portion", meaning the actual pulse that detaches the droplet from the wire. It is during that time-period that the machine can dump much larger serving of amperage, without it being in proportion to the WFS (the way we are normally accustomed to thinking/viewing current delivery via a wire-feed process, similar to the solid wire example listed above). This is why even with a low WFS when pulse welding thinner steel, the penetration profile can be deeper (using pulse) than what that same WFS would deliver in a short-circuit filler metal transfer, while still only delivering the same actual amount of filler metal. WFS stays the same, filler metal delivered stays the same, yet the penetration profile can be made deeper. Why? The machine is invisibly (but audibly) "sneaking" in very large bursts of current specifically during the droplet-detachment event. The use of pulsing enables control of ...... and modify penetration without changing average or mean current(2). Again I want to emphasize that the large burst of current can be much more than what the steady-state current transfer would normally be for that given WFS. IE: The machine can now control the welding current independently of the metal transfer.

Example:
  • At 250 IPM, for the same 045 solid wire in the previous example, the machine using pulse can now be dumping in (just as an example) 400A+ during the droplet detachment event
    • .
      • The large burst of current can produce two benefits
        • a deeper penetration
        • while keeping the mean steady-state amperage near the 250A mark.
      So now, the key is that the amperage is not tied to the WFS, and can be manipulated "at will" by the machine, based on it's programming. So because the pulse frequency is fast enough that the puddle produced from the peak pulse has not fully solidified, you get the full benefits of the high-amperage peak pulse (deeper penetration) while still maintaining some resemblance of control due to the mean amperage being within reason for the given application.





(1)(2) Source: Pulse Current Gas Metal Arc Welding: Characteristics, Control and Applications

THAT is why Pro Pulse MIG.
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BugHunter
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^^^^^

All that seems intuitive, but until I got to see it for myself firsthand, in real time, I'm not sure you could have said that to me and I could have understood just how profound a difference it makes. It's really night and day what pulse does to a MIG. Especially considering how relatively unimpressed I am with pulse on my TIG.
cj737
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Thanks for explaining what I know to me, Oscar.

The only "flaw" in your premise is that MIG and FCAW (and Dual Shield) is that they are themselves different processes. FCAW is really SMAW and Dual Shield is not GMAW. I am not saying you can't do what you're describing, but I doubt what you are doing hasn't been considered and has been cast aside for technical reasons you may not yet encounter or understand. I have never encountered a situation that would use it, need it, or allow it. And don't think for a moment a structural job that gets inspected will allow tinkering with your gas. You'd be grinding at your expense or walked off a job.

Your premise of penetration doesn't really withstand the argument once you're in spray transfer or using Dual Shield. Mixing in pulse (to me) is an attempt to use a feature with a process that is not suitable for it, or technically sound. But hey, tinker away! I just caution you that the idea of being the First Man on Mars may come to disappoint you in the end.
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cj737 wrote:Thanks for explaining what I know to me, Oscar.

The only "flaw" in your premise is that MIG and FCAW (and Dual Shield) is that they are themselves different processes. FCAW is really SMAW and Dual Shield is not GMAW. I am not saying you can't do what you're describing, but I doubt what you are doing hasn't been considered and has been cast aside for technical reasons you may not yet encounter or understand. I have never encountered a situation that would use it, need it, or allow it. And don't think for a moment a structural job that gets inspected will allow tinkering with your gas. You'd be grinding at your expense or walked off a job.

Your premise of penetration doesn't really withstand the argument once you're in spray transfer or using Dual Shield. Mixing in pulse (to me) is an attempt to use a feature with a process that is not suitable for it, or technically sound. But hey, tinker away! I just caution you that the idea of being the First Man on Mars may come to disappoint you in the end.
You're welcome.

Agreed.

Disagree.
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Poland308
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Miller used to have an auxiliary pendant control. Think it was called a phenix. But it was a pulse controller that allowed Mig pulse and wave control. I worked at a place where I used one for special projects. We used it primarily for a special hard surface wire. But the manual had generic programs / parameters for things like copper and bronze wires. But that was 20 years ago.
I have more questions than answers

Josh
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