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Learning vertical up butt joint weld

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Learning vertical up butt joint weld

Postby bruce991 » Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:10 pm

So I am a tig guy trying my best to learn the arc/stick side of things. I have a good handle on fillet welding flat, butt joints flat lap joints flat, but vertical attempts I am a mess. I have been trying on some 3/16 carbon steel flat butted together joint vertical of course. Used 3/32 7018 and going up and down from 50 amps to 80 amps. 1/8 inch rod 7018 at 120 amps key holed a lot. I angle my rod about 20 degrees down from horizontal so pointing work end upwards, hand down. I find molten filler puddle drops down and as I move up all I do is burn away base metal and watch the puddle drop down and out. I tried as low as 40 amps, side to side whip and pause and still fido's butt with diarrhea.

When I see Jody in his videos he has a major bevel on his pieces and gets inside that gap, but on the butt joint I am on the surface, is that my issue?

Old guy learning new skills maybe. Bruce
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Re: Learning vertical up butt joint weld

Postby Farmwelding » Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:16 pm

well for one you are running to cold at 40 amps. Secondly when doing a side to side motion you need to move across the middle faster if your weld is starting to sag some.
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Re: Learning vertical up butt joint weld

Postby cj737 » Wed Feb 22, 2017 7:05 pm

When traveling up with stick, arc length is critical, and, you need to draw a large "triangle" to move the puddle up the hill. Be aware, as you weld uphill, the heat is running up faster in front/above you, so you can lower your amps somewhat from the maximum, but 40 is way too cold.

With 3/32 7018 on 3/16 carbon, I'd be around 70-75 amps depending on machine, leads, etc. Probably closer to 105 with 1/8" rod. But arc length should still be almost scribing the metal as you go.

And don't become distracted by the saggy looking puddle while you weld. The slag is collecting but your puddle beneath should still be decent.
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Re: Learning vertical up butt joint weld

Postby bruce991 » Wed Feb 22, 2017 8:09 pm

cj737 wrote:When traveling up with stick, arc length is critical, and, you need to draw a large "triangle" to move the puddle up the hill. Be aware, as you weld uphill, the heat is running up faster in front/above you, so you can lower your amps somewhat from the maximum, but 40 is way too cold.

With 3/32 7018 on 3/16 carbon, I'd be around 70-75 amps depending on machine, leads, etc. Probably closer to 105 with 1/8" rod. But arc length should still be almost scribing the metal as you go.

And don't become distracted by the saggy looking puddle while you weld. The slag is collecting but your puddle beneath should still be decent.


I only tried 40 amps as an experiment since was key holing a bunch at 80 amps, but settled in at 60 to 7o amps with 3/32 rod, seemed 1/8 inch rod was a bit of overkill. So try a inverted triangle or is a std triangle movement? Maybe I had hand too low and arc length or angle was going too far ahead of me. It is difficult to ignore the build up of molten steel at the bottom. Will try that next time, thanks.
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Re: Learning vertical up butt joint weld

Postby PeteM » Wed Feb 22, 2017 8:40 pm

bruce991 wrote:So I am a tig guy trying my best to learn the arc/stick side of things. I have a good handle on fillet welding flat, butt joints flat lap joints flat, but vertical attempts I am a mess. I have been trying on some 3/16 carbon steel flat butted together joint vertical of course. Used 3/32 7018 and going up and down from 50 amps to 80 amps. 1/8 inch rod 7018 at 120 amps key holed a lot. I angle my rod about 20 degrees down from horizontal so pointing work end upwards, hand down. I find molten filler puddle drops down and as I move up all I do is burn away base metal and watch the puddle drop down and out. I tried as low as 40 amps, side to side whip and pause and still fido's butt with diarrhea.

When I see Jody in his videos he has a major bevel on his pieces and gets inside that gap, but on the butt joint I am on the surface, is that my issue?

Old guy learning new skills maybe. Bruce


This weld you are attempting is pretty much impossible. As you are finding out, by the time you get deep into the metal it is a mess. The bevel is what gets the depth required for a full thickness or greater than thickness weld.

A typical procedure for butt welds on thinner sheet (1/4, 3/16) is to run a nice bead up one side, then grind through to the weld from the other side using a 1/4 disk (or hat ever is handy), then fill for complete joint penetration (CJP). On thicker plate it's basically the same, just using carbon arc gouging because it is much quicker.

A nice practice for you would be to run a bead straight up the seam on one side, then turn it around, grind and fill. 80-85 amps should be fine for 3/32 7018 rods. I don't like to tilt it that far as it creates too much heat at the tip for my liking, but around 5 degrees goes really nice (for me).
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Re: Learning vertical up butt joint weld

Postby bruce991 » Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:07 pm

PeteM wrote:
bruce991 wrote:So I am a tig guy trying my best to learn the arc/stick side of things. I have a good handle on fillet welding flat, butt joints flat lap joints flat, but vertical attempts I am a mess. I have been trying on some 3/16 carbon steel flat butted together joint vertical of course. Used 3/32 7018 and going up and down from 50 amps to 80 amps. 1/8 inch rod 7018 at 120 amps key holed a lot. I angle my rod about 20 degrees down from horizontal so pointing work end upwards, hand down. I find molten filler puddle drops down and as I move up all I do is burn away base metal and watch the puddle drop down and out. I tried as low as 40 amps, side to side whip and pause and still fido's butt with diarrhea.

When I see Jody in his videos he has a major bevel on his pieces and gets inside that gap, but on the butt joint I am on the surface, is that my issue?

Old guy learning new skills maybe. Bruce


This weld you are attempting is pretty much impossible. As you are finding out, by the time you get deep into the metal it is a mess. The bevel is what gets the depth required for a full thickness or greater than thickness weld.




A typical procedure for butt welds on thinner sheet (1/4, 3/16) is to run a nice bead up one side, then grind through to the weld from the other side using a 1/4 disk (or hat ever is handy), then fill for complete joint penetration (CJP). On thicker plate it's basically the same, just using carbon arc gouging because it is much quicker.

A nice practice for you would be to run a bead straight up the seam on one side, then turn it around, grind and fill. 80-85 amps should be fine for 3/32 7018 rods. I don't like to tilt it that far as it creates too much heat at the tip for my liking, but around 5 degrees goes really nice (for me).


Okay I think I have your method figured out. Create some beef on backside to absorb the heat, and a shallow V on other side to fill with weld. What to do in event of a piece of machinery that needs a vertical weld ( crack in material) and you have access to only one side, concerns me should I get a request for a repair like that. Real thick material groove out and lay beads I figure, but if a 3/16 or thinner may be a pain. Thanks
Attachments
Arc shots 3.JPG
Third time was the charm on flat fillet I feel I learned this pretty quickly after only 3 sticks.
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Re: Learning vertical up butt joint weld

Postby PeteM » Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:36 pm

bruce991 wrote:
PeteM wrote:
bruce991 wrote:So I am a tig guy trying my best to learn the arc/stick side of things. I have a good handle on fillet welding flat, butt joints flat lap joints flat, but vertical attempts I am a mess. I have been trying on some 3/16 carbon steel flat butted together joint vertical of course. Used 3/32 7018 and going up and down from 50 amps to 80 amps. 1/8 inch rod 7018 at 120 amps key holed a lot. I angle my rod about 20 degrees down from horizontal so pointing work end upwards, hand down. I find molten filler puddle drops down and as I move up all I do is burn away base metal and watch the puddle drop down and out. I tried as low as 40 amps, side to side whip and pause and still fido's butt with diarrhea.

When I see Jody in his videos he has a major bevel on his pieces and gets inside that gap, but on the butt joint I am on the surface, is that my issue?

Old guy learning new skills maybe. Bruce


This weld you are attempting is pretty much impossible. As you are finding out, by the time you get deep into the metal it is a mess. The bevel is what gets the depth required for a full thickness or greater than thickness weld.




A typical procedure for butt welds on thinner sheet (1/4, 3/16) is to run a nice bead up one side, then grind through to the weld from the other side using a 1/4 disk (or hat ever is handy), then fill for complete joint penetration (CJP). On thicker plate it's basically the same, just using carbon arc gouging because it is much quicker.

A nice practice for you would be to run a bead straight up the seam on one side, then turn it around, grind and fill. 80-85 amps should be fine for 3/32 7018 rods. I don't like to tilt it that far as it creates too much heat at the tip for my liking, but around 5 degrees goes really nice (for me).


Okay I think I have your method figured out. Create some beef on backside to absorb the heat, and a shallow V on other side to fill with weld. What to do in event of a piece of machinery that needs a vertical weld ( crack in material) and you have access to only one side, concerns me should I get a request for a repair like that. Real thick material groove out and lay beads I figure, but if a 3/16 or thinner may be a pain. Thanks


Thats the money weld!

For thinner stuff with no rear access, a downhill with 6010 might be a good option. To get something like that vertical up would either be cold and possibly lack fusion, or very hot and end up with metal dropping out and making matters worse.

I'm trying to think of an AC option for stick that wouldn't eat metal, but since I haven't done any, I'm coming up blank. (if ac is even an option). Most of my experience is on heavy plate, some thinner structural shapes and tube, and a little sheet. Most of my other odds and ends are just getting away with it. ;)
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Re: Learning vertical up butt joint weld

Postby Farmwelding » Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:18 pm

For colder thin welds 6013 is a good option. They were designed for sheet metal and running downhill on sheet metal. They run and start in low amps on AC
A student now but really want to weld everyday. Want to learn everything about everything.
warning!! Bad English may be in post. It's off a phone/autocorrect. I've had teachers with worse spelling!
Instagram: @farmwelding
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