Stick Welding Tips, Certification tests, machines, projects
olek
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Thanks Dave, I will examine, but at 115 it seem to be cooked enough. I will give a try . ( this is on relatively thin steel too, about 6 mm )

Now if one weld at 130A with arc force at 30% and dragging is not that meaning he use about 150A or more (arc force "on" permanently ?)

I did experiment undercut and a bit too much projection when using more than 120A. May be that welder is "robust" it have 108v open tension .. we use 220v here could it make a difference ?

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Ruark
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Use good rods. Lincoln. Lincoln Excalibur if you can get it. Are you using DC? If you're using AC, I assume your rods are 7018AC rods, not just plain 7018.

For 1/8" rods, 105-110 amps is plenty. Arc force at 50, helps prevent sticking. DON'T get in the habit of trying to solve problems by turning up current or voltage all the time. The instructor at my welding school had us run everything at the minimum recommended setting. If we couldn't do it, we figured out how, instead of just turning up everything.

Your beads show a need for more consistency, especially consistent travel speed, but also consistent arc length, angle, etc. You can pretty much drag 7018 across the metal. Do NOT weave or step if you're welding flat or horizontal. Anyway, work on consistency. That will also prevent most of your sticking. Pretend you're one of those robots on a Ford assembly line.

Focus on your puddle. Notice how if you change your angle or speed, the shape of the puddle changes slightly. It becomes narrower or wider or taller or whatever. Focus on keeping that puddle the exact, exact same size and shape as you move along. This is why so many veteran welders say things like "focus on the puddle" or "become one with the puddle." Remember, you weld with the puddle, not with the stick. Eventually you are able to react (by changing your angle or speed) to what you see the puddle doing, automatically, without really thinking about it. Focus. On. The puddle.

Restarting 7018 is much easier than what most people say. You do NOT need a file. When you finish running a bead, the INSTANT you stop welding, and we're talking a fraction of a second here, flick the molten metal off the rod. Now, you don't have to fling it clear across the street; just a very light flick will do it. But it solidifies in less than a second, so do it instantly. Before you restart, you might need to pinch off the flux sticking out past the end of the filler metal. Forget all this "scrape it on a file" crap.

Seeya.
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Ruark wrote:
For 1/8" rods, 105-110 amps is plenty. Arc force at 50, helps prevent sticking. DON'T get in the habit of trying to solve problems by turning up current or voltage all the time. The instructor at my welding school had us run everything at the minimum recommended setting. If we couldn't do it, we figured out how, instead of just turning up everything.
Respectfully, I disagree with running 7018 1/8" at the minimum recommended amperage.

Personal opinion, the middle of the range and up is where I stay. There is no need to fight it, let the rod do its thing.
Dave J.

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olek
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Hello , robot at the Ford plant speaking (pinched nose tone) ;)

Thanks I notice well what you said.
I use Lincoln 7018-1 "no name" they are nor excalibur probably but this is what we have here
.I also have ESAB 48.00 they are used for those pics series.
assuming their cost I doubt I will use them often.

I focus on the puddle AND the path I follow, but yes , vision problems I do not see behind the electrode I refer to what is enlighten by the arc so knowing I can drag was good news.

I tend to use the less energy so I have more time to react to puddle changes , but I did read Lincoln about 7018 they state use enough heat, on the hot side.
There will be differences depending of the machines too.
I use DCEP with 7018 ( but was said by diffetent euthorized people that first root pass electrode negative gives better penetration)

I will do those exercises to notice the puddle shape change with angle change, I think I begin to read it, when I did begin to drag I used the same rod angle then suddenly I did incline it more as it seemed more logical to do so.
( ..can you drag with the same angle than short arc ?)

In the mean time I find interesting studies where ptfe was used as a binder to make low hydrogen and tougher electrodes, at a lower cost because no cooking.

If interested, have a look, Electrode making is depicted as well as the composition of 7018 coating ( I falsely was thinking it contains graphite but it is limestone and fluorine essentially )

Those new generation of electrodes are probably on the market, may be 7016 ? Certainly 6010 too .
They should be less expensive unless ptfe is , but ,we know how it is....
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... via%3Dihub

All the best. Thanks for your help.
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olek
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I have to understand what does arc force when looking at the amp provided. I am digging strong and create undercut if I have more than 30 arc force so I font know how to use it

The maker of my welder told me to put it at 10 if it is annoying.
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olek wrote:I have to understand what does arc force when looking at the amp provided. I am digging strong and create undercut if I have more than 30 arc force so I font know how to use it

The maker of my welder told me to put it at 10 if it is annoying.
Undercut is another way to say under-fill.

You can easily undercut using a machine that doesn't have a dig feature.

It's generally caused by poor technique and is a mistake in welding. Everyone does it from time to time and then fixes it.

New people do it a lot.
Dave J.

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PeteM
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I'm sure there are some numbers to it for travel speed through a weld with a given electrode, at X current, etc. but what it usually comes down to is not going too fast or too slow, but "just right".

That's where the art of welding occurs. The science of it (numbers, etc.) is important to know, but the art is in the application.
olek
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May be that is not the good name I see too much groovr6 ( canal) at the top edge of an horizontal fillet ( first pass) or when raising vertically in triangle shape

I thought also that I had too soft metal , as wrought iron , sometime.
It happens also ( less often now ;) on the top edge of horizontal fillet

But with arc Force limited the edge of the weld are just embedded enough in the metal.

I did read that undercut was not a problem with first pass as it will be filled with the next.

I agree that it may also sign a misorientation of the rod in the angle, I am not sure now ... here it may be the case but this metal is very soft too.

7018 and 6013

https://goo.gl/photos/gT7mz46CCN8Y9NEK9

https://goo.gl/photos/6gPwoNGUiRg7nPJC9

Is arc force raising amp or only the tension, making the arc "tougher" ? I d prefer to understand it as it is a part of the welder setup, not just an "anti mistake" feature.
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Poland308
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Poor rod angle, too much amps, too much arc force, left over mill flake, and travel speed are all possible causes of undercut. These aren't the only causes, but the most likely.
I have more questions than answers

Josh
olek
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Poland308 wrote:Poor rod angle, too much amps, too much arc force, left over mill flake, and travel speed are all possible causes of undercut. These aren't the only causes, but the most likely.
Good , too much arc force is in th list ;)

arc force 10

https://goo.gl/photos/xmRQubDDPJ3CegHx6

What is arc force for, is it useful when one weld high carbon steel, for instance, or very thick pieces ?

I am sorry to focus on that, I am just thinking that I should be capable of mastering enough my rods so I do not stick, then use arc force at my advantage once I understand the process better

(I did begin the first month of welding with an old buzz box, and had the impression with the DC machine that whatever I do it will weld , I appreciate the hot start )
Pianos , restorer and tuner
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Ruark
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PeteM wrote:I'm sure there are some numbers to it for travel speed through a weld with a given electrode, at X current, etc. but what it usually comes down to is not going too fast or too slow, but "just right".

That's where the art of welding occurs. The science of it (numbers, etc.) is important to know, but the art is in the application.
This is true. Even if you do weld at a higher amp setting, it's ultimately you who controls the result.
olek
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Ruark wrote:
PeteM wrote:I'm sure there are some numbers to it for travel speed through a weld with a given electrode, at X current, etc. but what it usually comes down to is not going too fast or too slow, but "just right".

That's where the art of welding occurs. The science of it (numbers, etc.) is important to know, but the art is in the application.
This is true. Even if you do weld at a higher amp setting, it's ultimately you who controls the result.
Yes I did see such computations, some in a cell phone appli "smart welding solution " or welder pocket helper.
I think that at least knowing how much rods you will need for a given weld joint is a good help to make a price.

It seem to be admitted anyway that welders differ somehow. Even if the precision expected do not leave much room for improvisation.
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olek
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Something I do not understand

If I raise the hot start feature from 20 to 40 , the 7018 tend to stick .

I have no idea why . Is it because a blob of metal is ejected from the rod due to too much tension ?

Also I have sometimes the slag looking like that:

https://goo.gl/photos/FVE8kh6QPPCKVn2b7

The weld is OK but ...

What is the cause ? (may be the block is too hot and need to be cooled ? )Thanks
Last edited by olek on Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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olek
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Ruark wrote:
Focus on your puddle. Notice how if you change your angle or speed, the shape of the puddle changes slightly. It becomes narrower or wider or taller or whatever. Focus on keeping that puddle the exact, exact same size and shape as you move along. This is why so many veteran welders say things like "focus on the puddle" or "become one with the puddle." Remember, you weld with the puddle, not with the stick. Eventually you are able to react (by changing your angle or speed) to what you see the puddle doing, automatically, without really thinking about it. Focus. On. The puddle.

Seeya.
Thank you for tge restart tip, very useful. I think it is going better. I focus on the puddle even if it is not always easy.

Actually I try to see the puddle digging, but to keep the slag above it without having it moving any direction ( I suppose that as the slag is floating and we spray metal and gas on it it is normal to see it move, but what tells me that I am not having too much heat is the perimeter of the puddle. It should not enlarge easily, the perimeter should be delimited and quiet)

I hold the rod very lightly , I feel it touching the bottom from time to time, I am in the mood of letting the rod "do it thing" I am just orienting it , pulling it or pushing a hair in z motion so it dig vertical and flat, or on both sides of a corner.

Dave suggest a high ampere range, is it to make a specific welding technique where the welder moves fast ( I suppose any experienced welder will finally work fast) ?

May be also, once mastering the slow motion , it may be less tiring to speed up ( seem to me that the stress may help to concentrate more , so one stay more relax just to master better the puddle )

What do you think ?
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olek wrote:
Dave suggest a high ampere range, is it to make a specific welding technique where the welder moves fast ( I suppose any experienced welder will finally work fast) ?

May be also, once mastering the slow motion , it may be less tiring to speed up ( seem to me that the stress may help to concentrate more , so one stay more relax just to master better the puddle )

What do you think ?
I don't recall saying anything about higher amps for moving faster - but maybe I'm remembering wrong.

I like higher amps so the puddle wets out easier.

Running too cold makes it much harder than it has to be - as a side benefit, it does go a little faster though.

If I want speed I'll increase the rod size and amperage so that I lay down more metal.

I do like to run higher amps specifically for speed on TIG however :D
Dave J.

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olek
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MinnesotaDave wrote:
olek wrote:
Dave suggest a high ampere range, is it to make a specific welding technique where the welder moves fast ( I suppose any experienced welder will finally work fast) ?

May be also, once mastering the slow motion , it may be less tiring to speed up ( seem to me that the stress may help to concentrate more , so one stay more relax just to master better the puddle )

What do you think ?
I don't recall saying anything about higher amps for moving faster - but maybe I'm remembering wrong.

I like higher amps so the puddle wets out easier.

Running too cold makes it much harder than it has to be - as a side benefit, it does go a little faster though.

If I want speed I'll increase the rod size and amperage so that I lay down more metal.

I do like to run higher amps specifically for speed on TIG however :D

How is it faster with less amp ? I understand that faster cooking means faster moving

You say the puddle wets faster., OK but does it enlarge too ?

I think you said you run 125 135 A at least for 1/8 rod 7018.

In the end it may relate mostly to the steel thickness or quality is not it ? I mostly weld on 1/4 ' steel rarely thicker. What level of amp would you use then ?

A friend of mine say 20A for one mm . For instance. The speed of the cooling relates to metal thickness is not it ?
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olek wrote: I think you said you run 125 135 A at least for 1/8 rod 7018.

In the end it may relate mostly to the steel thickness or quality is not it ? I mostly weld on 1/4 ' steel rarely thicker. What level of amp would you use then ?

A friend of mine say 20A for one mm . For instance. The speed of the cooling relates to metal thickness is not it ?
With an 1/8" 7018 I commonly run 125-135 amps.

Less than 125 amps I don't like because the puddle is too cold and doesn't wet out the toes (edges) as easily.

Each rod has a range that they weld best in. For me, I take the recommended ranges and stay in the upper half.

If I need fewer amps, I drop down a rod size to 3/32" 7018 and run those 80-100 amps depending on what I need.

One overall general rule: don't use a rod thicker than your metal.

That's it, no need to make it complicated.
Dave J.

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Poland308
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I'm with Dave. Drop down to 3/32 rods. Run about 75-95 amps depending on position. You will end up with a lot more control.
I have more questions than answers

Josh
olek
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I see . I used 150 160A on the block I did 1F ( with the electrodes the size above 1/8)
Sure went well. But I had much spatter (as soon the base metal get hot may be ).

I noticed how the arc was lively and it was easy to obtain the puddle.

Do you think spatter can relate to the block getting too hot ?
I lowered about 10A less and reduced them but not totally
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olek
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Hello

What is the most probable cause of that slag?
1/8 esab 48.00 about 115A


I noticed that I need to speed somehow when passed the middle but here I did not.
I made small Z keeping the puddle shape and size

It happened also when welding flatter

https://goo.gl/photos/5hnKdDunfgrE9jW36

Slag very thin. I thought not enough angle or too slow (the puddle slips), Are the edges too cold?


Thank you

My welder runs with 220v and haves high Uo at 108v

May be it is why 125A seem to be too hot. (much spatter, tempest on the puddle)

Indeed I finished with smaller electrodes at 98A running fast and it was easier
Last edited by olek on Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Pianos , restorer and tuner
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olek
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Also, I wonder if, when you need to put beads along each other.

Do you need to see the edge of the precedent bead (*or/and feel the angle of the toe.?

Or can a seasoned welder make a straight bead just by feeling the straight line in its muscular memory?

I ask that because when I focus on the puddle, if I have a visual repere it is OK (edge of the metal, edge of a bead)
But sometime I only can see the puddle so it is as making a straight-line with eyes closed.

Is it worth training to learn the straight-line without looking?
Last edited by olek on Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The straight line stuff seems to come with time, as does how you see the work piece. Learning to focus on the pool and control it is important, but once it becomes a foregone conclusion other things come into focus.

Then you start seeing the joint, the slag, a corner or turn coming up, etc. and after a while you can see the whole picture. Practically speaking, that is where finding a setting for a given electrode becomes important. Then you can sort of sit back and look at the whole piece from 10,000 ft. view. The pool is stable, you have the pace down and you can see the forest And the trees.
olek
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PeteM wrote:The straight line stuff seems to come with time, as does how you see the work piece. Learning to focus on the pool and control it is important, but once it becomes a foregone conclusion other things come into focus.

Then you start seeing the joint, the slag, a corner or turn coming up, etc. and after a while you can see the whole picture. Practically speaking, that is where finding a setting for a given electrode becomes important. Then you can sort of sit back and look at the whole piece from 10,000 ft. view. The pool is stable, you have the pace down and you can see the forest And the trees.
That is encouraging Thanks ;)

what mean "a corner or turn coming up ?" the future path of the bead around square tubing for instance ?

out of pushing the puddle so it weld the edges of the bead (that is where I did not see some undercut happening as in the precedent post , I remind looking at the pool at all times, stopping at a distance from the top of the block and not seeing the problem. )
This can be solved changing one of the parameters, but a perfect amp setting may certainly help.

I hope I can gain some distance viewing, as I see about nothing at the right of the rod and not really always the "dark to clear line" that I was said allow a survey of the pool while focusing on less light.

I did see on videos that the back of the heated zone can show a moving straight line when going from clear to dark and I tried to use that as a guide, but a specific level of heating and the good darkening are mandatory.
is it a "method" used ?

The puddle once sized do not seem to change much if heat regulation is good, so I may be able to train to look at those darker elements. is it a way to go ? (keeping an eye on the puddle of course)

Or just trying to look with a distance once I am confident of the puddle.
I will buy a less dark screen , (the actual is numb.11 but not recent )I suppose there are different qualities for those fixed darkening glasses, may I have advantage to buy them from 3M for instance ?

Regards
Pianos , restorer and tuner
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olek
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it happened also when welding flatter

https://goo.gl/photos/5hnKdDunfgrE9jW36

Slag very thin. I thought not enough angle or too slow (the puddle slips), Are the edges too cold ? (possible when the z motion is too fast)

if I lower the amps it gives a better "normal" slag . is the slag on the edge of burning there ?
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olek wrote: I will buy a less dark screen , (the actual is numb.11 but not recent )I suppose there are different qualities for those fixed darkening glasses, may I have advantage to buy them from 3M for instance ?

Regards
That is a good idea. 3M makes good products. A #10 shade is typical for most welding parameters. 11 gives me some problems.

Its also a good idea to have a piece of suede or other type of coverage on the back of the hood to block ambient light from entering. This will reflect off of the lens and reduce your visibility (to virtually zero).

For what its worth, those welds seem to be coming along just fine.
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