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Ruark
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PeteM wrote:I'm sure there are some numbers to it for travel speed through a weld with a given electrode, at X current, etc. but what it usually comes down to is not going too fast or too slow, but "just right".

That's where the art of welding occurs. The science of it (numbers, etc.) is important to know, but the art is in the application.
This is true. Even if you do weld at a higher amp setting, it's ultimately you who controls the result.
olek
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Ruark wrote:
PeteM wrote:I'm sure there are some numbers to it for travel speed through a weld with a given electrode, at X current, etc. but what it usually comes down to is not going too fast or too slow, but "just right".

That's where the art of welding occurs. The science of it (numbers, etc.) is important to know, but the art is in the application.
This is true. Even if you do weld at a higher amp setting, it's ultimately you who controls the result.
Yes I did see such computations, some in a cell phone appli "smart welding solution " or welder pocket helper.
I think that at least knowing how much rods you will need for a given weld joint is a good help to make a price.

It seem to be admitted anyway that welders differ somehow. Even if the precision expected do not leave much room for improvisation.
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olek
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Something I do not understand

If I raise the hot start feature from 20 to 40 , the 7018 tend to stick .

I have no idea why . Is it because a blob of metal is ejected from the rod due to too much tension ?

Also I have sometimes the slag looking like that:

https://goo.gl/photos/FVE8kh6QPPCKVn2b7

The weld is OK but ...

What is the cause ? (may be the block is too hot and need to be cooled ? )Thanks
Last edited by olek on Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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olek
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Ruark wrote:
Focus on your puddle. Notice how if you change your angle or speed, the shape of the puddle changes slightly. It becomes narrower or wider or taller or whatever. Focus on keeping that puddle the exact, exact same size and shape as you move along. This is why so many veteran welders say things like "focus on the puddle" or "become one with the puddle." Remember, you weld with the puddle, not with the stick. Eventually you are able to react (by changing your angle or speed) to what you see the puddle doing, automatically, without really thinking about it. Focus. On. The puddle.

Seeya.
Thank you for tge restart tip, very useful. I think it is going better. I focus on the puddle even if it is not always easy.

Actually I try to see the puddle digging, but to keep the slag above it without having it moving any direction ( I suppose that as the slag is floating and we spray metal and gas on it it is normal to see it move, but what tells me that I am not having too much heat is the perimeter of the puddle. It should not enlarge easily, the perimeter should be delimited and quiet)

I hold the rod very lightly , I feel it touching the bottom from time to time, I am in the mood of letting the rod "do it thing" I am just orienting it , pulling it or pushing a hair in z motion so it dig vertical and flat, or on both sides of a corner.

Dave suggest a high ampere range, is it to make a specific welding technique where the welder moves fast ( I suppose any experienced welder will finally work fast) ?

May be also, once mastering the slow motion , it may be less tiring to speed up ( seem to me that the stress may help to concentrate more , so one stay more relax just to master better the puddle )

What do you think ?
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olek wrote:
Dave suggest a high ampere range, is it to make a specific welding technique where the welder moves fast ( I suppose any experienced welder will finally work fast) ?

May be also, once mastering the slow motion , it may be less tiring to speed up ( seem to me that the stress may help to concentrate more , so one stay more relax just to master better the puddle )

What do you think ?
I don't recall saying anything about higher amps for moving faster - but maybe I'm remembering wrong.

I like higher amps so the puddle wets out easier.

Running too cold makes it much harder than it has to be - as a side benefit, it does go a little faster though.

If I want speed I'll increase the rod size and amperage so that I lay down more metal.

I do like to run higher amps specifically for speed on TIG however :D
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olek
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MinnesotaDave wrote:
olek wrote:
Dave suggest a high ampere range, is it to make a specific welding technique where the welder moves fast ( I suppose any experienced welder will finally work fast) ?

May be also, once mastering the slow motion , it may be less tiring to speed up ( seem to me that the stress may help to concentrate more , so one stay more relax just to master better the puddle )

What do you think ?
I don't recall saying anything about higher amps for moving faster - but maybe I'm remembering wrong.

I like higher amps so the puddle wets out easier.

Running too cold makes it much harder than it has to be - as a side benefit, it does go a little faster though.

If I want speed I'll increase the rod size and amperage so that I lay down more metal.

I do like to run higher amps specifically for speed on TIG however :D

How is it faster with less amp ? I understand that faster cooking means faster moving

You say the puddle wets faster., OK but does it enlarge too ?

I think you said you run 125 135 A at least for 1/8 rod 7018.

In the end it may relate mostly to the steel thickness or quality is not it ? I mostly weld on 1/4 ' steel rarely thicker. What level of amp would you use then ?

A friend of mine say 20A for one mm . For instance. The speed of the cooling relates to metal thickness is not it ?
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olek wrote: I think you said you run 125 135 A at least for 1/8 rod 7018.

In the end it may relate mostly to the steel thickness or quality is not it ? I mostly weld on 1/4 ' steel rarely thicker. What level of amp would you use then ?

A friend of mine say 20A for one mm . For instance. The speed of the cooling relates to metal thickness is not it ?
With an 1/8" 7018 I commonly run 125-135 amps.

Less than 125 amps I don't like because the puddle is too cold and doesn't wet out the toes (edges) as easily.

Each rod has a range that they weld best in. For me, I take the recommended ranges and stay in the upper half.

If I need fewer amps, I drop down a rod size to 3/32" 7018 and run those 80-100 amps depending on what I need.

One overall general rule: don't use a rod thicker than your metal.

That's it, no need to make it complicated.
Dave J.

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Poland308
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I'm with Dave. Drop down to 3/32 rods. Run about 75-95 amps depending on position. You will end up with a lot more control.
I have more questions than answers

Josh
olek
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I see . I used 150 160A on the block I did 1F ( with the electrodes the size above 1/8)
Sure went well. But I had much spatter (as soon the base metal get hot may be ).

I noticed how the arc was lively and it was easy to obtain the puddle.

Do you think spatter can relate to the block getting too hot ?
I lowered about 10A less and reduced them but not totally
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olek
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Hello

What is the most probable cause of that slag?
1/8 esab 48.00 about 115A


I noticed that I need to speed somehow when passed the middle but here I did not.
I made small Z keeping the puddle shape and size

It happened also when welding flatter

https://goo.gl/photos/5hnKdDunfgrE9jW36

Slag very thin. I thought not enough angle or too slow (the puddle slips), Are the edges too cold?


Thank you

My welder runs with 220v and haves high Uo at 108v

May be it is why 125A seem to be too hot. (much spatter, tempest on the puddle)

Indeed I finished with smaller electrodes at 98A running fast and it was easier
Last edited by olek on Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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olek
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Also, I wonder if, when you need to put beads along each other.

Do you need to see the edge of the precedent bead (*or/and feel the angle of the toe.?

Or can a seasoned welder make a straight bead just by feeling the straight line in its muscular memory?

I ask that because when I focus on the puddle, if I have a visual repere it is OK (edge of the metal, edge of a bead)
But sometime I only can see the puddle so it is as making a straight-line with eyes closed.

Is it worth training to learn the straight-line without looking?
Last edited by olek on Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PeteM
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The straight line stuff seems to come with time, as does how you see the work piece. Learning to focus on the pool and control it is important, but once it becomes a foregone conclusion other things come into focus.

Then you start seeing the joint, the slag, a corner or turn coming up, etc. and after a while you can see the whole picture. Practically speaking, that is where finding a setting for a given electrode becomes important. Then you can sort of sit back and look at the whole piece from 10,000 ft. view. The pool is stable, you have the pace down and you can see the forest And the trees.
olek
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PeteM wrote:The straight line stuff seems to come with time, as does how you see the work piece. Learning to focus on the pool and control it is important, but once it becomes a foregone conclusion other things come into focus.

Then you start seeing the joint, the slag, a corner or turn coming up, etc. and after a while you can see the whole picture. Practically speaking, that is where finding a setting for a given electrode becomes important. Then you can sort of sit back and look at the whole piece from 10,000 ft. view. The pool is stable, you have the pace down and you can see the forest And the trees.
That is encouraging Thanks ;)

what mean "a corner or turn coming up ?" the future path of the bead around square tubing for instance ?

out of pushing the puddle so it weld the edges of the bead (that is where I did not see some undercut happening as in the precedent post , I remind looking at the pool at all times, stopping at a distance from the top of the block and not seeing the problem. )
This can be solved changing one of the parameters, but a perfect amp setting may certainly help.

I hope I can gain some distance viewing, as I see about nothing at the right of the rod and not really always the "dark to clear line" that I was said allow a survey of the pool while focusing on less light.

I did see on videos that the back of the heated zone can show a moving straight line when going from clear to dark and I tried to use that as a guide, but a specific level of heating and the good darkening are mandatory.
is it a "method" used ?

The puddle once sized do not seem to change much if heat regulation is good, so I may be able to train to look at those darker elements. is it a way to go ? (keeping an eye on the puddle of course)

Or just trying to look with a distance once I am confident of the puddle.
I will buy a less dark screen , (the actual is numb.11 but not recent )I suppose there are different qualities for those fixed darkening glasses, may I have advantage to buy them from 3M for instance ?

Regards
Pianos , restorer and tuner
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olek
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it happened also when welding flatter

https://goo.gl/photos/5hnKdDunfgrE9jW36

Slag very thin. I thought not enough angle or too slow (the puddle slips), Are the edges too cold ? (possible when the z motion is too fast)

if I lower the amps it gives a better "normal" slag . is the slag on the edge of burning there ?
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PeteM
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olek wrote: I will buy a less dark screen , (the actual is numb.11 but not recent )I suppose there are different qualities for those fixed darkening glasses, may I have advantage to buy them from 3M for instance ?

Regards
That is a good idea. 3M makes good products. A #10 shade is typical for most welding parameters. 11 gives me some problems.

Its also a good idea to have a piece of suede or other type of coverage on the back of the hood to block ambient light from entering. This will reflect off of the lens and reduce your visibility (to virtually zero).

For what its worth, those welds seem to be coming along just fine.
olek
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PeteM wrote:
olek wrote: I will buy a less dark screen , (the actual is numb.11 but not recent )I suppose there are different qualities for those fixed darkening glasses, may I have advantage to buy them from 3M for instance ?

Regards
That is a good idea. 3M makes good products. A #10 shade is typical for most welding parameters. 11 gives me some problems.

Its also a good idea to have a piece of suede or other type of coverage on the back of the hood to block ambient light from entering. This will reflect off of the lens and reduce your visibility (to virtually zero).

For what its worth, those welds seem to be coming along just fine.

Hello, yes good idea to add a light cloth. Indeed light coming from the back is a big hassle. BTW ' I did use very often a strong light 500w on my left.
But when natural light Is available I try to avoid the 500w.
Is it a good idea to train to use' only', the light from the arc (which can be really small when I touch the puddle or drag)

Hopefully my fixed darkness hood 3M have filtered air intake this makes it much closed, a bit heavy but only with the lcd hood I have those light réflexions.

Happy to read that 11 is too dark for you, as it is the same for me.

Yes progress.. I did make a 3F with 6013 on an old support full of slag due to bad work done some time ago.
and repair on cast iron 'open root :, using inox electrode esab 308 on the iron Very happy I did get good full penetration with not too large keyhole,and re cap correctly that pipe made of grey cast-iron. (with my first jobs on that one despite small beads I did hear some crack sounds and when I tried the 308 I had also a hot crack the first time.)

Today all went well. Hammered with the slag hammer not too strong but immediately. Those electrodes are really easy to work with. Better than the NiFe electrodes.

BTW I will V shape grey iron with the plasma cutter, the disk grinder and also milling carbure tools, and try to check with a reactive to see if the HAZ is smaller with plasma than with carbide disks.

Regards

https://goo.gl/photos/kk56g2K7wqFVWT8g8

Is that 3h acceptable? 3vpasses, different beads for the last, stringer beads and descending from the top pics.

Are the stringer beads supposed to have no drops (or almost?)
Less or more amperage than when waving up ("I'm not happy of my stringer up l

When you have slag inclusions as I did have in the upper section , is it possible to burn them descending with a thick electrode. or more chances going up? Or grinding only solution?
I have seen a problem welder using big 7016 electrodes in 2h position (to weld new wear pieces on a rock breaking machine), and he did make 3 beads (4mm), on each joint, leaving the slag.

I did do so on the block with some 6013, and the slag seem to be burned correctly.
Last edited by olek on Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:07 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Poland308
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SS stick rods do not like to be whipped or weaved. That's why your getting a lot of entrapped slag.
I have more questions than answers

Josh
olek
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Poland308 wrote:SS stick rods do not like to be whipped or weaved. That's why your getting a lot of entrapped slag.
Thank you. I will keep that in mind. But today I used 6013 for the 3F (not H sorry ;)
I think there is always much slag with those rods, plus I had some yet entrapped on the support, I did grind but left some slag, hoping to burn it, obviously it did not work so well.

Until now I only used SS rods on grey cast iron. With beads asking as 1/2 inch at the max, I did not notice slag problems then.

You can burn some slag obviously, more easily with 6010 or 7018 than 6013, but I do not grasp the best process to do so out of the flat position where melted slag raise and do not interfere with the new weld eventually ("assuming enough heat can be used)
Regards
Last edited by olek on Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Poleframer
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Kinda late to this thread, but here's my 2 cents worth.
A lot of the welding I've done I cant see squat after the hood goes down. just gotta take a look and go.
When you need to turn on your bedlamp at night, you dont have to paw around, after a while your hand goes right to the switch, same with the alarm clock. After a while of welding, you get to where you see where your hand needs to go, and you just do it.
Or you screw up and grind off the bead you ran off into left field and do it again. Such is life.
Maybe the cost of becoming a good welder can be measured in grinding disks...
olek
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Poleframer wrote:Kinda late to this thread, but here's my 2 cents worth.
A lot of the welding I've done I cant see squat after the hood goes down. just gotta take a look and go.
When you need to turn on your bedlamp at night, you dont have to paw around, after a while your hand goes right to the switch, same with the alarm clock. After a while of welding, you get to where you see where your hand needs to go, and you just do it.
Or you screw up and grind off the bead you ran off into left field and do it again. Such is life.
Maybe the cost of becoming a good welder can be measured in grinding disks...
Hello, there is no delay to answer, when one add a point of view or an information ;)

When I train to go with straight beads from left to right, I think I stay in line for 2", then I tend to go there of there depending of the angles used (that is, when welding standing and with one hand, it is going better with 2 hands)

I am considering making a systematic restart at 2". That may give me the opportunity for another 2" eyeballing (and work restarts).

Good idea? When I confidently go straight Left right, thinking I am doing well just with muscular memory, results can be surprising and frustrating (I begin to be good at correcting the lining b y adding new small beads ;))

Regards
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olek
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Help for training with stringer beads vertical up 3F

I did try for 2 hours, without great results
I have no big problems with manipulations, but making small weave or no weave I had trouble, difficult to see the puddle, only the upper part and nothing under the electrode

After different tests I seem to like to use a 95 degree angle and to "push" the electrode in the metal, almost as doing "automatic manual"
78 to 86A with 7018 3/32"
No slag problems and no undercut, but the beads make drops without me noticing

My impression is that you may have always perfect beads to use as guides, as soon as the precedent bead is uneven in height, or wave, it makes a lot of trouble to me

DO you have a few tricks or a basic method to work stringer beads ? May I train again on a flat piece of steel before switching to angled block ?
Or use a slightly stronger angle so to see more of the puddle?

See the last pic https://photos.app.goo.gl/doTHrkeA1PqWMAcL2

Thanks
Last edited by olek on Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The drops are just extra slag dripping off. You have to learn how to see past them on vertical up.
I have more questions than answers

Josh
olek
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Poland308 wrote:The drops are just extra slag dripping off. You have to learn how to see past them on vertical up.
Looking a little from the side ? (I may see "normal" slag drips, or can the amount of metal be seen from the puddle?)

I tried a lot to fix the drops while doing the next bead, they can be melt somehow, but then I need to consider where the extra metal is going and add less where there is yet enough,

is it Ok to "flatten" a precedent bead that way ? (enlarging the arc on a drop,then going a little faster on its top to avoid adding more - more where there are misses, more heat on drops)
,
ALso, do I have less slag with 80° than with 85 (less thick slag as with flat beads ?)
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Vertical up takes lots of practice with 7018. There's no method to use to make it drip less, or to get it to look like like it does when your welding flat. You just have to practice with all those variables. Try to be consistent and do everything the same for 1 whole day. Then the next day change the way you do just 1 thing, practice for the day, and then the next day change 1 more thing.
I have more questions than answers

Josh
olek
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Poland308 wrote:Vertical up takes lots of practice with 7018. There's no method to use to make it drip less, or to get it to look like like it does when your welding flat. You just have to practice with all those variables. Try to be consistent and do everything the same for 1 whole day. Then the next day change the way you do just 1 thing, practice for the day, and then the next day change 1 more thing.
Thank you Josh for the answer and method

DO you remind how you look at the puddle then (trying to be level or a little on the side to see under, for instance ) ?

I can see a puddle in drop shape, I can try to keep it consistent, but it is a very small puddle.

No doubt it takes a lot of practice ;) a new challenge. I was relatively doing well vertical up with 6013 on flat steel (may be the thick slag help to maintain the puddle ) and with 7018 weaving, it does not drip so much, so I was surprised of my results ;) I will first make a plate vertical up , the cooling is better but it may help to focus on parameters
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