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Amps showing up on display while welding

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Re: Amps showing up on display while welding

Postby PeteM » Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:12 am

olek wrote:May be there are 2 modules, one that maintain amps when the arc enlarges, and one that add amps and tension when the stick is touching the metal.


There is. The mode of operation for stick welding is called "Constant Current". There is also "Constant Voltage" and various hybrid technologies in between.

Within that mode, there are control features designed to address specific situations by automatically controlling the characteristics of the welding arc, like "dig" or "arc force". This is a sub-system that operates within the system of constant current. How that control is is managed varies from manufacturer to manufacturer, and has changed thanks to technological developments in circuit controls, making it possible to increase current when needed automatically and reduce it when not necessary.
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Re: Amps showing up on display while welding

Postby olek » Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:30 am

PeteM wrote:
olek wrote:May be there are 2 modules, one that maintain amps when the arc enlarges, and one that add amps and tension when the stick is touching the metal.


There is. The mode of operation for stick welding is called "Constant Current". There is also "Constant Voltage" and various hybrid technologies in between.

Within that mode, there are control features designed to address specific situations by automatically controlling the characteristics of the welding arc, like "dig" or "arc force". This is a sub-system that operates within the system of constant current. How that control is is managed varies from manufacturer to manufacturer, and has changed thanks to technological developments in circuit controls, making it possible to increase current when needed automatically and reduce it when not necessary.


Thank you, I have trouble understanding the sketches in the sketch below (tig inverter) there are 2 CC curve, does it mean there may be a different curve for each amps setting (the stick curve her being for 80A ) ?

Regards and thanks again for chiming in .
Pianos , restorer and tuner (technician)
Dedicated to learn stick welding since april
slowly learning ;) not complaining of doing beads and beads

pro inverter PROGYS 200 FV PFC CEL+tig lift & end of gas regulation
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Re: Amps showing up on display while welding

Postby olek » Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:08 am

olek wrote:
PeteM wrote:
olek wrote:May be there are 2 modules, one that maintain amps when the arc enlarges, and one that add amps and tension when the stick is touching the metal.


There is. The mode of operation for stick welding is called "Constant Current". There is also "Constant Voltage" and various hybrid technologies in between.

Within that mode, there are control features designed to address specific situations by automatically controlling the characteristics of the welding arc, like "dig" or "arc force". This is a sub-system that operates within the system of constant current. How that control is is managed varies from manufacturer to manufacturer, and has changed thanks to technological developments in circuit controls, making it possible to increase current when needed automatically and reduce it when not necessary.


Thank you, I have trouble understanding the sketches in the sketch below (tig inverter) there are 2 CC curve, does it mean there may be a different curve for each amps setting (the stick curve her being for 80A ) ?

Regards and thanks again for chiming in .



Well so the arc force regulation , when there is one, , is possibly the "fine setting" ? WIth zero arc force I noticed a very buttery arc, not so unpleasant but I did put arc force back trying 10 20 30 until I find a strenght that suits my need

Mixing that regulation and amps is more difficult, at that point I do not understand yet very well what makes what.

But its coming ;) For instance I think raising arc force and lowering amps may fight too strong spatter while allowing enough penetration.
Pianos , restorer and tuner (technician)
Dedicated to learn stick welding since april
slowly learning ;) not complaining of doing beads and beads

pro inverter PROGYS 200 FV PFC CEL+tig lift & end of gas regulation
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Re: Amps showing up on display while welding

Postby PeteM » Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:07 am

olek wrote:Well so the arc force regulation , when there is one, , is possibly the "fine setting" ? WIth zero arc force I noticed a very buttery arc, not so unpleasant but I did put arc force back trying 10 20 30 until I find a strenght that suits my need

Mixing that regulation and amps is more difficult, at that point I do not understand yet very well what makes what.

But its coming ;) For instance I think raising arc force and lowering amps may fight too strong spatter while allowing enough penetration.


There ya go! Sometimes a little tinkering with it does more than thousands of words.

In the cert. courses I took, there was a 15 min. instructional followed by 3.75 hrs. of practice.
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Re: Amps showing up on display while welding

Postby olek » Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:46 am

PeteM wrote:
olek wrote:Well so the arc force regulation , when there is one, , is possibly the "fine setting" ? WIth zero arc force I noticed a very buttery arc, not so unpleasant but I did put arc force back trying 10 20 30 until I find a strenght that suits my need

Mixing that regulation and amps is more difficult, at that point I do not understand yet very well what makes what.

But its coming ;) For instance I think raising arc force and lowering amps may fight too strong spatter while allowing enough penetration.


There ya go! Sometimes a little tinkering with it does more than thousands of words.

In the cert. courses I took, there was a 15 min. instructional followed by 3.75 hrs. of practice.




"I think " means "I have noticed that, but I am not so sure"
Pianos , restorer and tuner (technician)
Dedicated to learn stick welding since april
slowly learning ;) not complaining of doing beads and beads

pro inverter PROGYS 200 FV PFC CEL+tig lift & end of gas regulation
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Re: Amps showing up on display while welding

Postby PeteM » Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:22 am

olek wrote:
PeteM wrote:
olek wrote:Well so the arc force regulation , when there is one, , is possibly the "fine setting" ? WIth zero arc force I noticed a very buttery arc, not so unpleasant but I did put arc force back trying 10 20 30 until I find a strenght that suits my need

Mixing that regulation and amps is more difficult, at that point I do not understand yet very well what makes what.

But its coming ;) For instance I think raising arc force and lowering amps may fight too strong spatter while allowing enough penetration.


There ya go! Sometimes a little tinkering with it does more than thousands of words.

In the cert. courses I took, there was a 15 min. instructional followed by 3.75 hrs. of practice.




"I think " means "I have noticed that, but I am not so sure"


In my opinion, penetration and its importance is vastly overstated in welding, especially at the amateur level. The mixture ratio for filler metal to base is ideally a 70/30 mix. Therefore on a 1/8 inch weld, the penetration and mixture only needs to be approximately 1/3 the thickness of the bead size, or 1/24 of an inch of actual penetration into the base metal.

Best way to check that is a cut/polish/etch analysis, and for actual soundness of the weld- beat it till it breaks.

Fusion (or lack thereof) and the re-crystallization of the metal is the real key to a good weld.

Something to think about- Take a scribe and scratch a line down a piece of metal. Now ask yourself what amount of metal is holding one side of that scratch to the other?
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Re: Amps showing up on display while welding

Postby olek » Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:05 pm

PeteM wrote:
olek wrote:Well so the arc force regulation , when there is one, , is possibly the "fine setting" ? WIth zero arc force I noticed a very buttery arc, not so unpleasant but I did put arc force back trying 10 20 30 until I find a strenght that suits my need

Mixing that regulation and amps is more difficult, at that point I do not understand yet very well what makes what.

But its coming ;) For instance I think raising arc force and lowering amps may fight too strong spatter while allowing enough penetration



"I think " means "I have noticed that, but I am not so sure"


In my opinion, penetration and its importance is vastly overstated in welding, especially at the amateur level. The mixture ratio for filler metal to base is ideally a 70/30 mix. Therefore on a 1/8 inch weld, the penetration and mixture only needs to be approximately 1/3 the thickness of the bead size, or 1/24 of an inch of actual penetration into the base metal.

Best way to check that is a cut/polish/etch analysis, and for actual soundness of the weld- beat it till it breaks.

Fusion (or lack thereof) and the re-crystallization of the metal is the real key to a good weld.

Something to think about- Take a scribe and scratch a line down a piece of metal. Now ask yourself what amount of metal is holding one side of that scratch to the other?


M

Thanks, then what tool may I consider to cut, (also to cut st 45 90deg tubes for building), static cutting disk, electrical saw ?

Not too expensive, dust collection if possible (I cannot afford to put metal dust everywhere)
.

See I am studying ;) https://photos.app.goo.gl/VR1hTJ6NOsGugMjs1 today
Vertical downhill, 7018 (using most of the ones from the bin) on a lap joint block so not flat.
Zero arc force 1/8 118 to 125A

As it was somewhat frustrating, I added a coat of 4mm 6013 going up. 132A.. No arc force, slag as a breeze

Yesterday : https://photos.app.goo.gl/m70TJ4vp66a3aQkl1

I do not complain I make beads and beads, and I try to understand what happen with arc force and without.

Always trying to weld with enough amps.
One hand, standing. I used chalk lines but laterally once half of the plate is done the chalk is under the dust..

I do not cut and etch do often because of the dust but sure I will.

Regards and thank you for the interesting and precise explanations

(for the line scratches, I don't get the comparison, but let me think about it ;)
Last edited by olek on Thu Jul 27, 2017 1:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
Pianos , restorer and tuner (technician)
Dedicated to learn stick welding since april
slowly learning ;) not complaining of doing beads and beads

pro inverter PROGYS 200 FV PFC CEL+tig lift & end of gas regulation
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Re: Amps showing up on display while welding

Postby MinnesotaDave » Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:21 pm

7018 is not a vertical down rod - at least none that I've purchased on this side of the pond.

Up is the direction for that joint with 7018.
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Re: Amps showing up on display while welding

Postby olek » Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:32 pm

MinnesotaDave wrote:7018 is not a vertical down rod - at least none that I've purchased on this side of the pond.

Up is direction for that joint with 7018.


http://www.weldtrade.pl/ok4800-25mm-p-8 ... kazje.info


Ceci explique cela..in the end, I did not verify, those are Esab 48.00. what a waste, it worked somehow making 'smiles' but even then the puddle very suddenly pass the rod is one is not very cautious. Not descending you see right

Anyway due to the 'stairs' shape it was very difficult, at each step change of rod angle to avoid sudden drop.

with a short arc the bead is flat, too flat

Mistake...
Last edited by olek on Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Pianos , restorer and tuner (technician)
Dedicated to learn stick welding since april
slowly learning ;) not complaining of doing beads and beads

pro inverter PROGYS 200 FV PFC CEL+tig lift & end of gas regulation
olek
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Re: Amps showing up on display while welding

Postby olek » Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:19 pm

7810 up 3/32 & fillet joint.

Now it seem to be better.

If only I could have better viewing, I am not shaking, I am rolling (I forget rattle :))

I can weld Stevie Wonder style!
.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/S0S5ZVeV8jZTTQ0Q2
Pianos , restorer and tuner (technician)
Dedicated to learn stick welding since april
slowly learning ;) not complaining of doing beads and beads

pro inverter PROGYS 200 FV PFC CEL+tig lift & end of gas regulation
olek
Guide
 
Posts: 168
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2017 4:07 pm
Location: France

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