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Amps showing up on display while welding

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Re: Amps showing up on display while welding

Postby Poland308 » Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:06 pm

Yes. But I think on some machines it affects the arc in more ways than just the voltage. Probably have to get some others to weigh in who are more knowledgeable.
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Re: Amps showing up on display while welding

Postby olek » Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:30 pm

Poland308 wrote:Yes. But I think on some machines it affects the arc in more ways than just the voltage. Probably have to get some others to weigh in who are more knowledgeable.



Well it is difficult to find precise descriptions .

Some say that this is only a short timed action when the arc is so short that the stick could stick, then it burns quick a piece of rod and the arc enlarge

Or the arc behavior is changed from its begin moment on the welding curve (I prefer that one)

Or both process are coded in the electronics, some voltage is injected at some point allowing the arc to dig better, plus a security for the really too short arc

Anyway I'd like to know if dragging the rod at the edge of the puddle is short enough to active arc force
I think I can feel it when doing 3F , with the stick right or left that is digging strong

ANd that only with not too powerful regulation, at 120A for 1/8 for instance the arc is so lively and strong there is no feel to reduce it.

Regards
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Re: Amps showing up on display while welding

Postby Poland308 » Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:18 pm

Hot start and dig are two separate things.
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Re: Amps showing up on display while welding

Postby olek » Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:56 pm

Hello
I amnot confusing those but

I am sorry "antistick" function is just cutting the current if the rod have stick, so it does not burn and it is easier to take it out

I was confusing with the arc force, , the result of arc force is that sticking is less easy as when there is a light shortage the electronics send some tension and burn the rod a mm or so

Possibly the amount of shortage is evaluated with its resistance in ohms (or the resulting tension) , during welding, I suspect the tension injection occur with a really small arc as 1 or 2/32
It is logical that the result differs depending of the electrode, the ones that "spray" metal are making less current shortage than the ones that make drops (7018 I think ?)

Regards
Pianos , restorer and tuner (technician)
Dedicated to learn stick welding since april
slowly learning ;) not complaining of doing beads and beads

pro inverter PROGYS 200 FV PFC CEL+tig lift & end of arc regulation
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Re: Amps showing up on display while welding

Postby olek » Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:04 pm

Poland308 wrote:Yes. But I think on some machines it affects the arc in more ways than just the voltage. Probably have to get some others to weigh in who are more knowledgeable.


I was said that the voltage is used to regulate the amps on dc machines, the amps possibly are raised by using a stronger voltage (anyway one need more volts to allow more amps, if I understand correctly)
Pianos , restorer and tuner (technician)
Dedicated to learn stick welding since april
slowly learning ;) not complaining of doing beads and beads

pro inverter PROGYS 200 FV PFC CEL+tig lift & end of arc regulation
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Re: Amps showing up on display while welding

Postby Poland308 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:09 pm

Usually the volts amps relationship would be inverse. as voltage goes up amps go down.
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Re: Amps showing up on display while welding

Postby olek » Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:16 pm

Poland308 wrote:Usually the volts amps relationship would be inverse. as voltage goes up amps go down.


I think this is the way the relationship works when you have a given voltage they are used as a reservoir for amps

but if then you add volts the amps will rise I think.

Regards
Pianos , restorer and tuner (technician)
Dedicated to learn stick welding since april
slowly learning ;) not complaining of doing beads and beads

pro inverter PROGYS 200 FV PFC CEL+tig lift & end of arc regulation
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Re: Amps showing up on display while welding

Postby MinnesotaDave » Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:59 am

olek wrote:
Poland308 wrote:Usually the volts amps relationship would be inverse. as voltage goes up amps go down.


I think this is the way the relationship works when you have a given voltage they are used as a reservoir for amps

but if then you add volts the amps will rise I think.

Regards


Josh is right. As voltage increases (arc longer) the amps decrease.

This is only true on non-inverters though.

Inverters generally hold the amps as the arc length changes within a certain range.

Dig allows the amps to increase as the voltage reduces (shorter arc) past a set point.
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Re: Amps showing up on display while welding

Postby olek » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:35 am

MinnesotaDave wrote:
olek wrote:
Poland308 wrote:Usually the volts amps relationship would be inverse. as voltage goes up amps go down.


I think this is the way the relationship works when you have a given voltage they are used as a reservoir for amps

but if then you add volts the amps will rise I think.

Regards


Josh is right. As voltage increases (arc longer) the amps decrease.

This is only true on non-inverters though.

Inverters generally hold the amps as the arc length changes within a certain range.

Dig allows the amps to increase as the voltage reduces (shorter arc) past a set point.



You are both right but I talk of something else

Let's say you regulate at 100 Amps, then the welder will use (i.e.) 20V

That voltage allows to obtain 100 Amps with the shorter arc, and may be the volts used are rising when the arc increase, just to maintain the arc . may be at 100 AMPS and with the little arc, the voltage is lower.

In any case I see the voltage as a reserve of power that allows to create x AMPS . If you want to obtain more amps during welding, the only solution I see is to raise the voltage.

To keep the amps while changing the arc length, I suppose we need to be in arc force mode .

In the sketch below , arc force begin at 80A , and 20v that is not what I thought, but I don't know how much amps change depending of the arc length. but what is said here correspond to what I perceived :
(with arc force at 5-6 )"For deeper penetration, simply decrease arc length by pushing the rod into the joint. At this point—and only at this point—the arc force control will kick in and provide the necessary boost of current. To reiterate: operators will only experience arc force when they reduce arc length to a point where voltage levels drop below 20 volts on most machines."

The external characteristics of the welder gives the curve AMPS VOLT where depending of the slant we see how much the volts and amps varies,
For instance if it is a TIG inverter, the curve have a straight slant with a small inclination , a Constant Current curve.

Image

"—The CC volt/amp curve of an inverter “changes personalities” when switched from Stick to TIG modes. Also, notice how the percentages for arc force control increase amperage as voltage drops."

From Miller 's page : https://www.millerwelds.com/resources/a ... g-purposes

Under normal arc length conditions, a Stick electrode operates at about 20 volts. However, some welding situations demand shorter arc lengths, such as when the operator has to push the rod into a tight corner or into a deep bevel of an open root joint. In these situations, Stick electrodes are notoriously prone to living up to their namesake and “sticking the rod” (e.g., the voltage drops so low that the arc extinguishes itself). Arc force control overcomes this problem by increasing current when the voltage levels drop below about 20 volts (see Fig. 3). The boost of current increases total power, keeps the weld puddle molten, prevents the rod from sticking and eliminates a lot of operator frustration.
Pianos , restorer and tuner (technician)
Dedicated to learn stick welding since april
slowly learning ;) not complaining of doing beads and beads

pro inverter PROGYS 200 FV PFC CEL+tig lift & end of arc regulation
olek
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Re: Amps showing up on display while welding

Postby olek » Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:40 pm

May be there are 2 modules, one that maintain amps when the arc enlarges, and one that add amps and tension when the stick is touching the metal.
Pianos , restorer and tuner (technician)
Dedicated to learn stick welding since april
slowly learning ;) not complaining of doing beads and beads

pro inverter PROGYS 200 FV PFC CEL+tig lift & end of arc regulation
olek
Guide
 
Posts: 174
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2017 4:07 pm
Location: France

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