Hi guys:
I want a new "toy". And that's just what it would be, a "toy", as I don't really need a welder, and have no particular application in mind. (i.e. I don't know what I'll be using it for.) I just want a stick welder to play with. Don't ask me why I want stick ~ I just do. I don't want mig or tig or this or that. I don't have any welding equipment yet. And I don't want a used welder. (I know ~ every body says to buy an old thus 'n such, but that just ain't gonna happen.) I've kinda narrowed it down to one of these two. A Hobart Stickmate LX AC/DC for $444.99, which I can pick-up from my local Fleet Farm, or an Everlast PowerARC 200 (200 Amp inverter, DC only) for $300.00 delivered. They both have pretty good reviews. I purposely didn't post this in an Everlast or Hobart forum as I want unbiased opinions. (Welding classes are not available in my area.)
So here are my questions.
Between these two (and only these two) which one would you pick, and why?
What are the pros and cons for each unit?
Your honest critique will be greatly appreciated. You can be negative, but please do it in a nice way.
Click a link to read their specs.
http://www.everlastgenerators.com/Power ... 91-pd.html
http://www.fleetfarm.com/catalog/produc ... 35ac-160dc
Thanks for your thoughtful help guys,
Don <><
The Everlast PowerArc 200. Easy to learn on, great welds right out of the box. Even many pros like it.
Others: light weight, small size, lots of power, long duty cycle.
Transformers are very, very heavy but reliable in general. Not as smooth welds as with a inverter.
I have both types and the two transformer welders are now in storage. The PowerArc 200 is used for everything.
Others: light weight, small size, lots of power, long duty cycle.
Transformers are very, very heavy but reliable in general. Not as smooth welds as with a inverter.
I have both types and the two transformer welders are now in storage. The PowerArc 200 is used for everything.
- Otto Nobedder
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Definitely the inverter, for the reasons GWD just gave. I would add that the inverter has a more stable arc when operating at low amperages. This helps when welding thin sections. If you change your mind sometime in the future and want to try TIG, either machine will do scratch-start, but the inverter will strike quicker and at lower amperages.
A disclaimer: I've never used either machine, my preference is for inverters in general. Far more portable, less storage space, less heat, lower power requirements per amp at the stinger.
I have used Hobart consumables (6010 and 7018 rod), and was not impressed. They were prone to sticking, sputtering, and poor restart. Buy a good brand rod, and keep it dry. Lincoln Electric's 10# pack comes in a metal can with a snap lid that works well, especially if you throw a dessicant pack or two in it.
While Chinese products in general get a bad rap, they had a learning curve when entering the American market, and many products, power tools in particular, have improved dramatically. I have a 5-year-old "Chicago Electric" air compressor I bought at Harbor freight that I've used at least once a week, and I haven't even needed to change the oil; It's as clear as the day I bought it.
Steve
A disclaimer: I've never used either machine, my preference is for inverters in general. Far more portable, less storage space, less heat, lower power requirements per amp at the stinger.
I have used Hobart consumables (6010 and 7018 rod), and was not impressed. They were prone to sticking, sputtering, and poor restart. Buy a good brand rod, and keep it dry. Lincoln Electric's 10# pack comes in a metal can with a snap lid that works well, especially if you throw a dessicant pack or two in it.
While Chinese products in general get a bad rap, they had a learning curve when entering the American market, and many products, power tools in particular, have improved dramatically. I have a 5-year-old "Chicago Electric" air compressor I bought at Harbor freight that I've used at least once a week, and I haven't even needed to change the oil; It's as clear as the day I bought it.
Steve
kermdawg
- kermdawg
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The inverter would be easily to learn on, with easier arc starts and a smoother arc.
Transformers are the old, proven reliable workhorses of welding. Theyve been around for along time. Inverters are new and as such dont have such a proven track record the transformers do. Ive also heard they dont like the dust, so that pretty much means their out of the question for alot of field welding. Not all mind you.
If you just want a toy to play around with definately buy an inverter. Light, small, easy to use.
edit-Otto beat me to the punch. But I would never buy a "chicago" harbor freight power tool myself. In my opinion, their like disposable power tools-use em once, throw em away, and buy a new one. Im surprised that air compressor has lasted you half that long Otto. Musta got the one of the lot that actually got QC'd lol
Transformers are the old, proven reliable workhorses of welding. Theyve been around for along time. Inverters are new and as such dont have such a proven track record the transformers do. Ive also heard they dont like the dust, so that pretty much means their out of the question for alot of field welding. Not all mind you.
If you just want a toy to play around with definately buy an inverter. Light, small, easy to use.
edit-Otto beat me to the punch. But I would never buy a "chicago" harbor freight power tool myself. In my opinion, their like disposable power tools-use em once, throw em away, and buy a new one. Im surprised that air compressor has lasted you half that long Otto. Musta got the one of the lot that actually got QC'd lol
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rickbreeezy
- rickbreeezy
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Does anyone really know the difference between Inverters and transformers? I understand the difference by looking at them, but what exactly does a transformer do? Opposed to it, what does an inverter do?
-Rick
-Rick
- Otto Nobedder
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A transformer, as the name implies, is like the electrical transformer on the pole in front of your house. It uses copper or aluminum (common now due to the price of copper) windings around an iron core to step down voltage and step up current to welding ranges. In a DC welder, a bank of large rectifiers converts the AC. Both processes generate a lot of heat.
An inverter uses solid state components (think of the MOSFETS in your stereo amplifier, on steroids) to do both functions. This greatly reduces the weight, and somewhat reduces the heat due to the higher efficiency. I don't understand the particulars, as I haven't studied electronics since 1991, and haven't kept up due to lack of interest.
Hopefully someone will have a clearer answer.
Steve
An inverter uses solid state components (think of the MOSFETS in your stereo amplifier, on steroids) to do both functions. This greatly reduces the weight, and somewhat reduces the heat due to the higher efficiency. I don't understand the particulars, as I haven't studied electronics since 1991, and haven't kept up due to lack of interest.
Hopefully someone will have a clearer answer.
Steve
a transformer welder uses a variable air gap transformer to turn your 240v mains into ~ 80v open circuit. the variable gap controls how much current the transformer can pass from the primary winding(connected to the wall) to the secondary winding( your welding circuit). by the same mechanisms (inductive coupling and resistive and inductive losses) the OCV will drop a fair amount under load.
DC machines will take that output and run it through a rectifier (which basically flips over the negative half of the AC wave)* and add a capacitor across the output to smooth the voltage.
*think of this as AC : V^V^V^V^V^V^V^V
the rectifier takes all the "V"s and turns them into "^"
also, imagine the Vs and ^s are the same size.
so you get ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
with the capacitor it will be closer to this: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
an inverter still has a transformer in it, but it serves a different purpose. inverters are switch-mode power supplies. basically, an inverter rectifies your mains voltage, smooths it, then chops it with big switching transistors.
the transistors can be controlled for frequency (your AC frequency) and on/off time (ac balance). that's run into a 'flyback transformer' (takes advantage of the inductive property of flyback) that with a feedback loop can drop that voltage down to whatever it needs to be for welding. this is usually an active circuit monitoring and controlling the arc voltage as opposed to relying on the inductive properties of the transformer (effectively set in stone) as in a transformer welder.
just like a transformer welder, to get DC, they run it though a rectifier again.
a transformer welder is MUCH simpler, but if something does break, you're basically buying a new welder.
obviously, the inverter welders are MUCH more complex, even for a simple stick welder, so there's a lot more to go wrong. but, there is a lot of little things that can be easily fixed if they break.
for my money, I'd get the everlast. I doubt you'll have problems with it.
DC machines will take that output and run it through a rectifier (which basically flips over the negative half of the AC wave)* and add a capacitor across the output to smooth the voltage.
*think of this as AC : V^V^V^V^V^V^V^V
the rectifier takes all the "V"s and turns them into "^"
also, imagine the Vs and ^s are the same size.
so you get ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
with the capacitor it will be closer to this: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
an inverter still has a transformer in it, but it serves a different purpose. inverters are switch-mode power supplies. basically, an inverter rectifies your mains voltage, smooths it, then chops it with big switching transistors.
the transistors can be controlled for frequency (your AC frequency) and on/off time (ac balance). that's run into a 'flyback transformer' (takes advantage of the inductive property of flyback) that with a feedback loop can drop that voltage down to whatever it needs to be for welding. this is usually an active circuit monitoring and controlling the arc voltage as opposed to relying on the inductive properties of the transformer (effectively set in stone) as in a transformer welder.
just like a transformer welder, to get DC, they run it though a rectifier again.
a transformer welder is MUCH simpler, but if something does break, you're basically buying a new welder.
obviously, the inverter welders are MUCH more complex, even for a simple stick welder, so there's a lot more to go wrong. but, there is a lot of little things that can be easily fixed if they break.
for my money, I'd get the everlast. I doubt you'll have problems with it.
rickbreeezy
- rickbreeezy
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Wow! That all is amazingly informative! Thanks.
-Rick
By the way, I just noticed after all this time, that otto nobeder, can be translated to: Oughta know better. My girlfreind pointed that out.
-Rick
By the way, I just noticed after all this time, that otto nobeder, can be translated to: Oughta know better. My girlfreind pointed that out.
WOW ! I'm the OP and I'm very impressed with your responses ! I think many will benefit from these explanations. I'm kinda surprised that there have been no votes for the Hobart. Maybe I'll do one of those corny videos of me opening the box when I get a welder. I have to admit that I enjoy watching those videos. Reminds me of by-gone days (way by-gone) when I would wake up in the middle of the night and go open some of my Christmas presents. Oh the excitement ! ! !
Thanks again guys,
Don <><
Thanks again guys,
Don <><
kermdawg
- kermdawg
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Hobart kinda is in a bad spot these days. Their prices are just under lincoln and millers, but their target group is the hobbyist/light do-it-yourselfer, a market largely gobbled up by everlast and other low cost inverter machines. Im not so sure their going to be around 10 years from now.
I mean, how many people have bought a new lincoln buzzbox or miller thunderbolt recently? I know lincoln probably sells a fair amount through home depot, but I dont think miller has a high volume retail outlet to pedal their goods.
In time, the cost of the miller/lincoln inverters is only going to keep falling, as it has been since they came out, especially with everlast holding the lower end of the price spectrum.
10 years from now the welding machine market is going to be very differant, and very interesting. Welding machines honestly have not had a big techonology breakthrough until inverters came along, but they do have one thing going for em-longevity. On a jobsite I've seen a "Heli-arc" brand welder. I asked the guy how old it was and he didnt know, so I inspected the machine-1974. Used frequently for heavy duty construction work for 35 years, and still going strong. Interesting to see if the inverters will be able to hold up that long.
Done blabbing off topic now
I mean, how many people have bought a new lincoln buzzbox or miller thunderbolt recently? I know lincoln probably sells a fair amount through home depot, but I dont think miller has a high volume retail outlet to pedal their goods.
In time, the cost of the miller/lincoln inverters is only going to keep falling, as it has been since they came out, especially with everlast holding the lower end of the price spectrum.
10 years from now the welding machine market is going to be very differant, and very interesting. Welding machines honestly have not had a big techonology breakthrough until inverters came along, but they do have one thing going for em-longevity. On a jobsite I've seen a "Heli-arc" brand welder. I asked the guy how old it was and he didnt know, so I inspected the machine-1974. Used frequently for heavy duty construction work for 35 years, and still going strong. Interesting to see if the inverters will be able to hold up that long.
Done blabbing off topic now
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