[jtap]

I am looking to get a welder. I have been researching for a while. I want value for money. I am willing to buy once and cry once. Around 500 is where I would like to stay but if you can convince me it's worth it I could justify up to about 1k.

I'm interested in stick. I want to be able to run 6010. TIG isn't important to me but a welder that could TIG would be OK and a nice bonus. I'm fine with getting a standalone MIG machine if I want to MIG someday.

Power: I will have to get an electrician to help me setup 220.

I have looked at new stuff (inverter welders) and Everlast makes a couple that I was toying with the idea of getting. They are portable and low duty and DC only. (161 STH & 210 STL) Not bad. I then looked into used units for that price or less and their potential better value for dollar. Since I don't know what I don't know it was hard to find what welders to search for on the used market.

The tombstones are cheap and seem ok but are a/c only. I could do that. Should I though is the question? I could get a Miller thunderbolt xl for a bit more (seeing them around 350-400 or so). Not as portable as other units but more so than the Miller dialarc (one for sale near me for 350). Could also get an idealarc. I don't know enough to make the decision about what to do. The slightly more portable thunderbolt seems like a good one but then I am seeing them around the price of that older dialarc. I wonder if there are better or other variables to consider that would help in the decision making that I am not aware of. I would appreciate any help or recommendations of other machines you feel would be good for me to look at. These are what I have come across in my searching but since I know so little about welding I don't know what else to search for. I'm willing to wait a bit for a deal to come up.

Thanks.

[cj737]

I had an IdealArc for 20 years. Ran great. Big, heavy, a power-hungry SOB on AC with HF setup, but for stick, ran like a Swiss watch. Mine needed a 50amp breaker to light up high amp rods.

Today, I wouldn’t re-buy it. While it was great, modern machines weld as well if not better with adjustments for Dig, lower power consumption, portability. All depends upon your needs. Shop only, never portable, these transformers are a top choice. Portability and efficiency, they’re not a consideration in my book.

[jtap]

I had an IdealArc for 20 years. Ran great. Big, heavy, a power-hungry SOB on AC with HF setup, but for stick, ran like a Swiss watch. Mine needed a 50amp breaker to light up high amp rods.

Today, I wouldn’t re-buy it. While it was great, modern machines weld as well if not better with adjustments for Dig, lower power consumption, portability. All depends upon your needs. Shop only, never portable, these transformers are a top choice. Portability and efficiency, they’re not a consideration in my book.

Thanks for the reply. You make a great point. I would like to be able to have it take up less space and be more portable. It's a question of what price premium do I have to pay for that and still have a good quality welder. A lot of that issue is knowing what welders are worth getting and what would their price be. Can you tell me what modern machines you would consider buying instead?

The HTP Inverarc 200 TLP seems like a good one, but is outside what I want to spend (although I did find a demo model for 1k on the bay).

[Oscar]

I had an IdealArc for 20 years. Ran great. Big, heavy, a power-hungry SOB on AC with HF setup, but for stick, ran like a Swiss watch. Mine needed a 50amp breaker to light up high amp rods.

Today, I wouldn’t re-buy it. While it was great, modern machines weld as well if not better with adjustments for Dig, lower power consumption, portability. All depends upon your needs. Shop only, never portable, these transformers are a top choice. Portability and efficiency, they’re not a consideration in my book.

Thanks for the reply. You make a great point. I would like to be able to have it take up less space and be more portable. It's a question of what price premium do I have to pay for that and still have a good quality welder. A lot of that issue is knowing what welders are worth getting and what would their price be. Can you tell me what modern machines you would consider buying instead?

The HTP Inverarc 200 TLP seems like a good one, but is outside what I want to spend (although I did find a demo model for 1k on the bay).

I was gonna say, the 200TLP will light the crap out of 6010's. That's how I got mine, used demo unit. Works just like new. You can scratch-start TIG with it if you get a valved TIG torch, and HTP will sell you a foot pedal that plugs into the remote amperage control port.

I extended my leads with some left over welding cable I bought from Electron Beam, so now I have a 23 foot stinger and work clamp. Along with a slider amptrol right on the stinger to adjust amperage on-the-fly.



Here I was using it to build my metal storage rack in the garage. Ran even crappy 7018 uphill quite nicely.

[jtap]

I had an IdealArc for 20 years. Ran great. Big, heavy, a power-hungry SOB on AC with HF setup, but for stick, ran like a Swiss watch. Mine needed a 50amp breaker to light up high amp rods.

Today, I wouldn’t re-buy it. While it was great, modern machines weld as well if not better with adjustments for Dig, lower power consumption, portability. All depends upon your needs. Shop only, never portable, these transformers are a top choice. Portability and efficiency, they’re not a consideration in my book.

Thanks for the reply. You make a great point. I would like to be able to have it take up less space and be more portable. It's a question of what price premium do I have to pay for that and still have a good quality welder. A lot of that issue is knowing what welders are worth getting and what would their price be. Can you tell me what modern machines you would consider buying instead?

The HTP Inverarc 200 TLP seems like a good one, but is outside what I want to spend (although I did find a demo model for 1k on the bay).[/quolike
I was gonna say, the 200TLP will light the crap out of 6010's. That's how I got mine, used demo unit. Works just like new. You can scratch-start TIG with it if you get a valved TIG torch, and HTP will sell you a foot pedal that plugs into the remote amperage control port.

I extended my leads with some left over welding cable I bought from Electron Beam, so now I have a 23 foot stinger and work clamp. Along with a slider amptrol right on the stinger to adjust amperage on-the-fly.



Here I was using it to build my metal storage rack in the garage. Ran even crappy 7018 uphill quite nicely.

Very nice. I especially like that amp adjustment slider.

I don't know that I need a machine that nice...but it seems like I can't really get a much better machine for the money. It is twice the money of a Hobart Stickmate LX or a used thunderbolt. Do you feel like it's twice as good? (I don't mean to oversimplify...i know it's lighter also...so there are other reasons which I may never even perceive)

[Oscar]

Very nice. I especially like that amp adjustment slider.

I don't know that I need a machine that nice...but it seems like I can't really get a much better machine for the money. It is twice the money of a Hobart Stickmate LX or a used thunderbolt. Do you feel like it's twice as good? (I don't mean to oversimplify...i know it's lighter also...so there are other reasons which I may never even perceive)

I've never used either of those welders so I can't comment specifically. What I can tell you that at one point I thought my $5000 Pro Pulse 300 MIG welder (which also stick welds including fully adjustable pulse parameters on stick mode) was the best damn stick welder I'll ever get to use. Nope. This little lunch box still welds even better. It's hard to describe it in words, you just have to use it to see/feel the arc. I know it may sound like I am biased with all my HTP talk, but I'm not, I just happen to really like their equipment. I am am a just hobbyist (I work at a middle school in Texas), paid for all my machines with my own money.

[jtap]

Very nice. I especially like that amp adjustment slider.

I don't know that I need a machine that nice...but it seems like I can't really get a much better machine for the money. It is twice the money of a Hobart Stickmate LX or a used thunderbolt. Do you feel like it's twice as good? (I don't mean to oversimplify...i know it's lighter also...so there are other reasons which I may never even perceive)

I've never used either of those welders so I can't comment specifically. What I can tell you that at one point I thought my $5000 Pro Pulse 300 MIG welder (which also stick welds including fully adjustable pulse parameters on stick mode) was the best damn stick welder I'll ever get to use. Nope. This little lunch box still welds even better. It's hard to describe it in words, you just have to use it to see/feel the arc. I know it may sound like I am biased with all my HTP talk, but I'm not, I just happen to really like their equipment. I am am a just hobbyist (I work at a middle school in Texas), paid for all my machines with my own money.

I appreciate your input. I heard about htp via youtube videos where they furnished them to the guys as a way to advertise. They work great for the guys on the channel. Their welding masks sure seem good too and at a good price.

Since there isn't really a big used market for htp my tendency would be to try to find something in there where I could get something already pre-depreciated...which is likely the bigger names.

I'm curious of older Miller and lincoln machines that were not transformer-based. When did the inverter thing start? Are those older machines around and did they last like these transformer ones that never die?

[Oscar]

Very nice. I especially like that amp adjustment slider.

I don't know that I need a machine that nice...but it seems like I can't really get a much better machine for the money. It is twice the money of a Hobart Stickmate LX or a used thunderbolt. Do you feel like it's twice as good? (I don't mean to oversimplify...i know it's lighter also...so there are other reasons which I may never even perceive)

I've never used either of those welders so I can't comment specifically. What I can tell you that at one point I thought my $5000 Pro Pulse 300 MIG welder (which also stick welds including fully adjustable pulse parameters on stick mode) was the best damn stick welder I'll ever get to use. Nope. This little lunch box still welds even better. It's hard to describe it in words, you just have to use it to see/feel the arc. I know it may sound like I am biased with all my HTP talk, but I'm not, I just happen to really like their equipment. I am am a just hobbyist (I work at a middle school in Texas), paid for all my machines with my own money.

I appreciate your input. I heard about htp via youtube videos where they furnished them to the guys as a way to advertise. They work great for the guys on the channel. Their welding masks sure seem good too and at a good price.

Since there isn't really a big used market for htp my tendency would be to try to find something in there where I could get something already pre-depreciated...which is likely the bigger names.

I'm curious of older Miller and lincoln machines that were not transformer-based. When did the inverter thing start? Are those older machines around and did they last like these transformer ones that never die?

It all just kinda depends if you're talking about inverters in industrial welding machines vs smaller-scale machines. I'm sure inverters were used in very sophisticated units prior to trickling down to the small-fab-shop type of welder. Others can surely tell you more, but it seems the 90's is when things started to trickle down, strictly from anecdotal references I've read.

[jtap]

It all just kinda depends if you're talking about inverters in industrial welding machines vs smaller-scale machines. I'm sure inverters were used in very sophisticated units prior to trickling down to the small-fab-shop type of welder. Others can surely tell you more, but it seems the 90's is when things started to trickle down, strictly from anecdotal references I've read.

Sounds about right. I found some info about Miller releasing in 2003 some new inverter technology for fast switching but it seemed to imply they already had inverter technology that just wasn't as fast.

I'd like to figure out if there are any reliable older inverter welder models that I could look for on the used market. I find it hard to get that information.

[Poland308]

The problem with used inverters, even Miller and Lincon, is that on the lower end there’s rarely a way to see arc starts or arc hours. I’ve used several Miller 150 stl’s from new in the box till the day they stopped. There great, light, portable, multiple voltage inputs( lower max amps on 115v). But you can’t tell when there about to die. There $1600 new but to get the main board replaced is about $1200. So without a way to see how much it’s run there kinda risky to buy used.

[jtap]

The problem with used inverters, even Miller and Lincon, is that on the lower end there’s rarely a way to see arc starts or arc hours. I’ve used several Miller 150 stl’s from new in the box till the day they stopped. There great, light, portable, multiple voltage inputs( lower max amps on 115v). But you can’t tell when there about to die. There $1600 new but to get the main board replaced is about $1200. So without a way to see how much it’s run there kinda risky to buy used.

That makes sense and you make good points. It just seemed strange to me there are all these old welders from the 70s and up (transformer ones) and I wasn't really seeing inverter ones (from the 90s). It didn't quite add up.

No one wants to ship the heavy old transformer ones and the new inverters are much lighter and shipping isn't so prohibitive. I do prefer the simplicity of the old ones.

[cj737]

You should be able to find older Maxstar 160 and 200 units that are inverter (circa 2005->) that have digital screens. These units with those screens do enable you to toggle through a background menu with Hours, Arc starts, Pre-flow, base amperage for TIG starts, etc.

I bought a used Dynasty 200 (built in 2005) on Craigslist. Took a gamble, it paid off huge. Someone bought it at an auction, paid crap for it, wanted slightly more, I snatched it up. I still use it today and they (Dynasty/Maxstar) weld stick electrodes as well as the $18k PipePro I often use. Variable voltage (single or three phase) will run off 120v, weighs about 45# so it is portable.

Keep an eye out for one. The Maxstar 200 is DC only, the Dynasty is AC/DC. Both are excellent machines and will out weld you for a long time.

[jtap]

You should be able to find older Maxstar 160 and 200 units that are inverter (circa 2005->) that have digital screens. These units with those screens do enable you to toggle through a background menu with Hours, Arc starts, Pre-flow, base amperage for TIG starts, etc.

I bought a used Dynasty 200 (built in 2005) on Craigslist. Took a gamble, it paid off huge. Someone bought it at an auction, paid crap for it, wanted slightly more, I snatched it up. I still use it today and they (Dynasty/Maxstar) weld stick electrodes as well as the $18k PipePro I often use. Variable voltage (single or three phase) will run off 120v, weighs about 45# so it is portable.

Keep an eye out for one. The Maxstar 200 is DC only, the Dynasty is AC/DC. Both are excellent machines and will out weld you for a long time.

Nice. That's a sweet deal. I'd like to score something like that. I will keep my eyes open for those in my Craigslist and Fb mp hunting. It's good to know what models to look for; that's a key thing for me while I search.

There's a Thunderbolt XL near me for $400. Looks like a ~2005. That wouldn't be a bad one to start with either. AC/DC. Not as nice as a Maxstar or Dynasty, of course.

There's a trailblazer 325 a little ways away from me with a trailer for 1200. I could maybe talk myself into that if it was a really good deal since I wouldn't have to get any electrical done.

[Poland308]

If it’s a gas engine drive check the run hours, and the oil. At about 3000hours most gas engines need some serious motor work.

[jtap]

If it’s a gas engine drive check the run hours, and the oil. At about 3000hours most gas engines need some serious motor work.

It's diesel. Do the same principles apply? At what hours would it need some repairs and any idea what they would be, or do you just run it until something breaks? Any idea if these were typically reliable engines?

[cj737]

It's diesel. Do the same principles apply? At what hours would it need some repairs and any idea what they would be, or do you just run it until something breaks? Any idea if these were typically reliable engines?

Work horse machine right there!

[jtap]

It's diesel. Do the same principles apply? At what hours would it need some repairs and any idea what they would be, or do you just run it until something breaks? Any idea if these were typically reliable engines?

Work horse machine right there!

I hadn't been looking at stuff that big or expensive but it seems like for a bit more than that Inverarc it's a bunch more unit as long as you have the space and very portable (some would say more portable in a way since it has its own power supply and thus able to go anywhere, not just places near 220). It's cheaper than so many models I have seen mentioned (dynasties, synchrowave and maxstar are all around that price or more expensive unless old or in Rough shape) that it appears to be a potentially good way to go about getting a welder that I hadn't considered before.

[Oscar]

If it’s a gas engine drive check the run hours, and the oil. At about 3000hours most gas engines need some serious motor work.

It's diesel. Do the same principles apply? At what hours would it need some repairs and any idea what they would be, or do you just run it until something breaks? Any idea if these were typically reliable engines?

From what I've read, a properly maintained diesel engine should last a lot longer. Why that is, I dunno; but the consensus seems to be 3-5x the life expectancy(?). Not stating fact, just trying to recollect info I've read.

[jtap]

If it’s a gas engine drive check the run hours, and the oil. At about 3000hours most gas engines need some serious motor work.

It's diesel. Do the same principles apply? At what hours would it need some repairs and any idea what they would be, or do you just run it until something breaks? Any idea if these were typically reliable engines?

From what I've read, a properly maintained diesel engine should last a lot longer. Why that is, I dunno; but the consensus seems to be 3-5x the life expectancy(?). Not stating fact, just trying to recollect info I've read.

That was my impression also. I just wondered if these were known to be good or have issues. I can probably more easily fix a diesel engine than the welder part of that unit anyway.

[Arno]

From what I've read, a properly maintained diesel engine should last a lot longer. Why that is, I dunno; but the consensus seems to be 3-5x the life expectancy(?). Not stating fact, just trying to recollect info I've read.

Combination of factors that add up to make them last longer.

The following mostly applies to smaller and more 'traditional' diesel engines..Diesel engines tend to:

• Be built heavier (block, head, pistons, rods, crank) to withstand the higher forces on them
• Can run at lower rpm to get peak torque lowering wear significantly
• Need less 'bits' needed to make 'em go (no ignition system, often purely mechanical injection on simple engines), so less items to fail/break
• Run less hot (turn more energy froim the fuel into movement), so less load on cooling

It's basically a combination of all the things adding up, combined with being somewhat more 'foolproof' making them usually outlast gas engines by a good margin, when maintained properly of course!

Latter can be critical as there is stuff like

• Diesel being susceptible to gelling at low/subzero temperatures unless additives are put into the fuel. No biggie for a unit that's run day in day out as it will get 'winter' diesel fillup soon enough, but on a unit that's only used once in a while it can be a maintenance issue.
• Diesel can burn more 'sooty' and the oil tends to get loaded with contaminants sooner, regular changes are good
• Water in fuel happens. Most diesels have a water separator (often combined with fuel filter) which needs to be emptied regularly(!)

Which can all shorten a diesel engine lifespan a lot from it's designed number of run hours if not kept up.

Many of the things above are off the table these days on modern diesel engines with things like common-rail fuel injection, which had made them as prone to issues as gas engines. And in some cases the engines are now built so light and close to their limits that most advantages of being 'overbuilt' are also less helpful anymore.

Bye, Arno.

[Oscar]

Excellent info Arno!

[jtap]

I echo Oscar, thanks for that info Arno.

I also hadn't thought about how you are also getting a generator. Saves you another tool and bundles in value.

[snoeproe]

For your budget and needs, I'd look for a used Thunderbolt AC/DC or a AC/DC tombstone Lincoln. Both those machines can be had for your budget and will last a long time.

[Oscar]

I echo Oscar, thanks for that info Arno.

I also hadn't thought about how you are also getting a generator. Saves you another tool and bundles in value.

speaking of generators, minimum is 12,000W to run any decent plasma cutter, as I just found out! I need to sell mine and get a larger one. Time for a new thread.

[jtap]

For your budget and needs, I'd look for a used Thunderbolt AC/DC or a AC/DC tombstone Lincoln. Both those machines can be had for your budget and will last a long time.

I think you are right. I talked to my electrician buddy and I'm going to get that side of things sorted while I keep shopping for a deal.

Do they make AC/DC tombstone lincolns? I thought they were just AC and that's why people were modding them for DC. I don't think I've seen one that is AC/DC yet.

edit: I just found that they do make a 225 AC/DC. Very cool. I like that. Thanks for yet more education!

speaking of generators, minimum is 12,000W to run any decent plasma cutter, as I just found out! I need to sell mine and get a larger one. Time for a new thread.

Good to know.

What are the thoughts on getting a DC only welder...like the AHP Alpha 160 ST, or a newer Thunderbolt (used)?

If I had to pay new Thunderbolt prices...what about the AHP Alpha TIG 200x? It's 750 new shipped to me.

Edit 2: Got a Thunderbolt locally (used).