Stick Welding Tips, Certification tests, machines, projects
Farmer263
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    Thu Nov 04, 2021 2:00 pm

Hello everyone.I have stuck with this frame repairing on my old loader ,mainly i have problem determining what type of steel i need to weld,therefore choosing the right electrodes.Based on pictures i will provide bellow ,this looks like frame it is made from U beam that is closed with some steel plate ,u can see at last picture where i marked with arrows where welds are.Btw 1st picture is left side of loader,just to see how that frame/beam looks like,it's definitely U beam in my opinion.2nd picture is inside of crack,3rd outside of crack,it is on right side.
So,anyway, to not make this more complicated,my question would be what is this steel type ,low,high carbon ?,or even better which electrodes should i use ?.I was thinking with oxy-acetylene to make V grove(i already started making it with some gouging electrodes but i am horrible at using them...),then start root with 6010 and finish all up with 7018.Or is there some better electrode type ?,since i don't know for sure what i am welding.
@Edit:I just added from internet last picture of that U beam,hot rolled they called them i guess or dunno,it looks like it is same as on loader,but i guess there is many varieties of them...
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Gdarc21
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    Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:44 am

Hi mate.
The correct term for that steel is C channel or Parrellel Flange Channel PFC. For short, this is not a correction of you it just makes it easier to order if you need to. What type of machine is it? Brand.
ISOLATE BATTERY. Otherwise you will be chasing electrical gremlins forever.
Earth as close to weld as possilble and never let it travel through a bearing etc.
Make sure attachment is on ground so it cant hydraulically unload over time.

Anyway 7016s is usually to go to for this. You will want to go vertical up dont go vertical down. This should be a mild steel grade. It will need to be clean grind, you will need to die grind aswell. No carbon deposit left in weld area etc.
Are there anything being run through channel? Like cables etc. If so try not melt them.
Run on tabs are good for this, just a bit of steel that is tacked to edge of channel, it is to get weld running smooth before it runs on to job. Cut off run on tabs after ward.
If weld goes around channel weld each side individually with run on tabs.
Drill hole at ends of crack before welding otherwise it will do it again.
Use old welding gloves welding blankets to protect wires etc that cant be moved.
If you have a small flame torch etc try to put some heat in to weld area, we are talking maybe 50"C just to dry steel out. If you need an example go heat up anybit of steel in shed and it should get moisture out of it at about 50C or so you just want to dry that out of weld area.
It wants to be ground flush afterwards with grinding marks going across weld not along it, with no visible faults then needle scale it. This makes sure vibrations dont always find this spot again and again and that they dont have a weld toe or such to follow.
Check the same spot on otherside of chassis too just in case.
This is a really easy repair, you will be fine with it.

How is you vertical up welding?
Dont use 10s 13s or any of those on machinery if absolutely dont have to.
Generally always 16s or 18s will do most steels. The only thing that really changes is preheat requirements.
Dont ever quench the weld.
Farmer263
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    Thu Nov 04, 2021 2:00 pm

@Gdarc21 Thanks for reply :).
Loader is old type ,Ult 160 ,it doesn't have electronic :),only electric on him is generator and starter motor :D ,even lights is not functional :oops: ...
I know about battery it is disconnected ,np about that,also there is no wiring inside that frame and everything around i will protect from sparks.
I have new box of 7018 electrodes ,not opened,i thought to use them,but if you say 7016 are better i can buy them is np.Btw why in your opinion you would pick 7016 over 7018 ?.I am curious only,is it tensile strength,elongation,or something else ?.
I am good at any position in welding except overhead,i don't really like that position,i almost hate it :)).I have large oxy-acetylene tanks for plenty of heating,i am friendly with those,we use them in farming allot ,on machines some bearings require pre heat to get out ,some rusty bolts ,etc etc,been using that allot.
My plan was first to finish up making V grove where that crack is on that frame,i will never again use gouging electrodes,no thanks,that's not for me xd ,so by doing it, it would anyway remove moisture in same pass before i start to weld.
So anyway if you say 6010 is no go for root pass then i will listen to you,il just fill it all up with 7016 then,or if you say i could go with 7018,is np.
I have been using 7018 electrodes,but most of the time i use 6013,classic.But 7016 would be new to me,or if they are similar to 7018,which i think they are,then there would not be problem using them.
Btw i forgot to mention,this repair do not need to look pretty,only functional,machine is mine,i don't plan to sell it ,if i ever will get rid of it,it will be for scrapyard :).So i was planning when i finish filling up V grove that i made ,i will add steel plates (10-15mm thick) over those welds as reinforcement ,just to be sure.
Gdarc21
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    Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:44 am

".I have large oxy-acetylene tanks for plenty of heating,i am friendly with those,we use them in farming allot ,on machines some bearings require pre heat to get out ,some rusty bolts ,etc etc,been using that allot.
My plan was first to finish up making V grove where that crack is on that frame,i will never again use gouging electrodes,no thanks,that's not for me xd ,so by doing it, it would anyway remove moisture in same pass before i start to weld.
So anyway if you say 6010 is no go for root pass then i will listen to you,il just fill it all up with 7016 then,or if you say i could go with 7018,is np.
I have been using 7018 electrodes,but most of the time i use 6013,classic.But 7016 would be new to me,or if they are similar to 7018,which i think they are,then there would not be problem using them.
Btw i forgot to mention,this repair do not need to look pretty,only functional,machine is mine,i don't plan to sell it ,if i ever will get rid of it,it will be for scrapyard :).So i was planning when i finish filling up V grove that i made ,i will add steel plates (10-15mm thick) over those welds as reinforcement ,just to be sure. "


7018s will be fine mate. 7016 is my preference for me but that's just cause I find the arc of 18 a bit moody, as long as they are dry they will be fine.
If you got the crack gouged to depth then tight weave up and hot run the next layer, you should be fine. Anyway it's not going to matter on that machine if you do the the root with 6010 and grind it back a bit then go over with 7018 if you are more confident to root with 6010,I personally have not used one in years, they are just a fail safe root stick for a fast paced pipe industry. In Australia we pretty much 7016 or 7018 pipe, or tig root or combo.
it's the hydrogen controlled electrode that is important for chassis work. Literally any hit or vibration, torque load etc travels through the chassis. Hit the groove with a bit heat on top of the clean up, even a little trust me, I could go in to why but it won't be short chat.
Carbon arc gouging is great, when chasing a crack start at end of it and swipe along it. Just don't go too deep you can always grind the last bit. What you have done is just dab at it and it has left bits of carbon a slag in groove and it won't melt out as well. Gouge as high amp as sticks goes maybe just a little less and air pressure is important. Stick melts steel and air sends it away. Those holes on gouging holder should be between stick and metal you gouging and angle it out, shallow angle. Stick should be in direction and centre of those holes. If that was only your first attempt at arc gouging then you are gonna be ok at it with practise. Just don't breathe that crap in, earplugs too. Carbon arc will make light work of heavy jobs and make you more skilled all round. Just wear the safety gear.
Steel plate on side (fish plates) just a side note on fish plates mate, they should taper at the ends, rounded edges and try to avoid welding vertical on fishplate ie don't weld all round. Weld across plate, Down tapered bit and when get to end of taper keep going off fishplate and on chassis rail about 30mm and curve gently up for top run and curve down for bottom run. This just ensures that it has no easy way to crack. There may be some pic of this on internet.
I know you said it's an old machine but it is still good practise.
Overhead weld are fine, don't drop amps more than 3 or so amp if at all, 5degree drag angle and tight arc just like down hand but different Ish :D
You mentioned rusty bolts, I find lanolin and then a bit of heat slips the lanolin into thread more. If broken bolt weld nut on and let cool, rusty bolts are the bane of my existence :lol:
Just googled machine, that's a nice solid unit, that thing would run forever and every repair would be hydraulic mechanical in nature so no head scratching about sensors and crap. It wouldn't be popular cause you would have to know how to use a loader, not like some operators theses days :roll: Nice machine.
It's not have to do, just best practise and you are welcome to experiment as you need to.
Have fun.
Farmer263
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    Thu Nov 04, 2021 2:00 pm

So 7018 will be then :).Definitely gold worth advice about fish plates,hell how i didn't know about those before :oops: ....i checked on internet and with pictures i understand very good ,due to my bad english i was confused a bit when you explained those ends of welds ,up and down ,but now with pictures i see what you meant :).Very interesting indeed.
But if i may ask one more question :),i see on internet those fish plates comes with holes inside them,and some don't.Does it make some structural difference with holes in fish plate ,or it have something to do with stress on plate ?.
Anyway u helped me allot,you now made me wish to do this repair as soon as possible xd,i need loader in 4-5 months,not before ,so i thought i have time to finish this,but that was before when i was unsure of how to do this repair :P.
Gdarc21
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    Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:44 am

The holes are plug welds, I dont think you would need them on that we use them for repairs on things like cat 777, D10, D11, bridges or such. But only when engineer specs it. Otherwise restore as original, flawless finish and needle piened.
The idea is that you dog and wedge plate down to a repaired chassis and then tack heat and weld. The plug holds a larger fishplate closer to the chassis. Taking stress off the other welds.
Your repair wont be as technical as that.
Get some scrap steel and practise overheads and carbon arc aswell.
When you get the hang of it, it can be very useful.
Hope it helps
Farmer263
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    Thu Nov 04, 2021 2:00 pm

Yeah i can practice,it can't hurt knowing more :)).Once more thanks allot for helping me out,i will see to post some picture or two when i do repair :) .
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