[taiwanluthiers]

So about sticks, what do you recommend? And what do you recommend a beginner to stick weld?

[tweake]

So about sticks, what do you recommend? And what do you recommend a beginner to stick weld?

i typically recommend 6013 single coated rods. easy to run, works on even low quality machines.
2.4mm or 3.2mm. 3.2mm is easier to manage as they shake less but 2.4mm requires less amps which is better on cheap machines. (i'm guessing your 1mm rods where short rods, not the standard length rods).
use them on thick material, eg 10mm plate. anything you won't burn through and big enough to handle the heat.
run those beads.

then step it up.
usa guys would be 6010 and 7018, but for Asia i would look at 7016.
6010 need special machines to run and 6011 won't run on cheap machines.
7016 is a close cousin to 7018 and is used in industry in Asia.

[taiwanluthiers]

J422 seems to be equivalent to 6013.

I don't have anything this thick, and most scraps I find won't be this thick either. I got some 3mm sheets to test on.

A lot of scrap yard won't sell either, and anything 10mm is going to be construction waste (you know I beams and such, and I'll need a truck to haul it. I'm taking public transportation and there are limits on what I can haul. I wish there are portable plasma cutter out there.

I got some 10mm mild steel coupons I'm practicing Tig on, not stainless and I'm not getting anything gold colored, but black. Is it ok to grind the coupon flat and practice weld over it once I fill it with beads? Thicker coupons are expensive.

When practicing what am I aiming for?

[tweake]

J422 seems to be equivalent to 6013.

but its not.
understand the differences.
but if thats all you can get and you can get them to run, then use that. its just hard to compare to others or get advice on if your using something different to everyone else.

I got some 10mm mild steel coupons I'm practicing Tig on, not stainless and I'm not getting anything gold colored, but black. Is it ok to grind the coupon flat and practice weld over it once I fill it with beads? Thicker coupons are expensive.

it would take a lot of grinding to get it back down. i usually just weld beads over the top. those tig coupons are probably ok stick welding coupons.

When practicing what am I aiming for?

getting arc length right, getting angle right, the right travel speed, getting width consistent, basically lay down good beads. jody has plenty of video's of this.
then stacking beads the right way. multi pass welds are good practice.

[taiwanluthiers]

So it's fine to just stack beads upon beads, as long as I get some practice in? At least practicing stick is easier because I not using up gasses.

By the way officially I can't stick weld on my welder but I rigged it to do stick. It makes things easier because I can just rig up a trigger and start or stop the arc when I want, not whenever I touch the stick.

Is it ok to weld on top of beads for Tig?

[tweake]

By the way officially I can't stick weld on my welder but I rigged it to do stick. It makes things easier because I can just rig up a trigger and start or stop the arc when I want, not whenever I touch the stick.

this just gets worse and worse.
no wonder your having so many problems.
i'm surprised your tig doesn't have stick mode, every one i've ever seen does.

[taiwanluthiers]

So you got problems with modifying equipment?

Yea I don't know why a TIG welder, a AC/DC TIG at that can't stick weld, it's a software thing. I can't exactly modify their software so I just stick a stinger where the + terminal is, and ground clamp in the - terminal and it stick welds. You just need a pedal or switch to turn the thing on. It's safer than a stick welder because there's no "accidentally started an arc because you touched it where you shouldn't".

[taiwanluthiers]

Here's my practice run, I burned a few 2.4mm stick on this going back and forth. The slag looks deceptive, full of holes but once I got the slag off it looked like this. Going to make this piece about 15mm thick before long. I can't see ANY puddles at all, all I can see is the slag and they are quite thick. I tried running 2.4mm stainless rods and I can see more puddle from that than this one. But I just push the rod down into the work and it somehow naturally works... once I get it started that is. It just goes in naturally.

PXL_20240202_115946755.MP.jpg (7.17 MiB) Viewed 1409 times

Below is my welder. Number is amps, F2 is just a memory function.

PXL_20240202_120017271.jpg (2.42 MiB) Viewed 1409 times

I got some old 3.2mm rods that burns like crap even at high amps, think it's because of moisture? I got no idea what rod it is, just that it has a pink coating, it has no marking on it at all. It burns like the J422 rod I have if it does burn. I put it in an oven to dry it out. It was given to me by a friend.

[tweake]

So you got problems with modifying equipment?

Yea I don't know why a TIG welder, a AC/DC TIG at that can't stick weld, it's a software thing. I can't exactly modify their software so I just stick a stinger where the + terminal is, and ground clamp in the - terminal and it stick welds. You just need a pedal or switch to turn the thing on. It's safer than a stick welder because there's no "accidentally started an arc because you touched it where you shouldn't".

the problem here is tig welders and stick generally run slightly different voltages.
stick in tig is a hack.
again this comes back to learning with known good gear so your not fighting your gear. also if you get a job welding and they have normal machine its going to run a bit different to what your used to. especially as stick welders do not have HF start on them.

[taiwanluthiers]

If they run at different voltage then how come people use stick welder to TIG with scratch start all the time?

[tweake]

If they run at different voltage then how come people use stick welder to TIG with scratch start all the time?

depends on the welder. a lot of those old scratch start rigs are transformer machines. inverters are little different, hence why we have a switch to change from tig to stick. as you say said, its in all in the programming.

your still missing the point, your not going to learn well if you keep using hacks.
is that welding issue cause by you or by one of the many hacks you have done to the setup? it makes it really difficult to learn and self taught is difficult enough as it is without it being made more complicated by dubious machines or setup.

[taiwanluthiers]

This Old Tony did a video where he took a cheap 60 dollar ebay welder and successfully did a scratch start TIG on it. Those aren't transformer machines.

I have no idea how different the voltage is but it isn't producing any different welds compared to all the other stick welds I have seen (quite frankly they are not good examples because they all look like crap, so I expected stick welds to look bad).

I'm not going to be doing a job stick welding stuff, so it doesn't matter. I have a welder just for my own projects as well as acquiring a skill just in case. Stick welders also tend to be cheap. Later on I'm going to be getting a plasma cutter that has built in stick function.

How different is the voltage? I doubt it's enough to matter. I could even do electropolish on it.

[taiwanluthiers]

Can you elaborate the voltage issue? I thought voltage is variable, the machine adjusts voltage to maintain current, and longer arc means higher voltage.

You didn't tell me if my practice welds are any good but you really emphasized equipment.

Give me suggestions as to equipment then. Is the weld good?

[cj737]

Can you elaborate the voltage issue? I thought voltage is variable, the machine adjusts voltage to maintain current, and longer arc means higher voltage.

There’s a great deal more to electricity than voltage and amps. Especially where welding is considered.

You didn't tell me if my practice welds are any good but you really emphasized equipment.

Because having the equipment setup properly eliminates a variable in analyzing your welds. Crap equipment leads to crap welds. Cheap welders that are capable of the different processes will produce passabale results in the hands of experienced people as long as you operate the machine within its limits. You won’t take a $60 eBay machine and weld 1” structural steel with Stick. There are “windows” of use for such a low end machine.

Give me suggestions as to equipment then. Is the weld good?

No. The bead width is inconsistent, the travel speed is irregular, and you’re not following a straight line. The weld looks tall (travel speed) and the toes aren’t fully wetted in (too low of amperage).

If you are using YT videos from self-taught garage shop welding “instructors” you will see crap results. Watch some of WTT videos on stick. Jody and more recently Andrew, produce some outstanding videos and Andrew can stick weld better than most TiG weld.

[taiwanluthiers]

Is there such a thing as too high of an amperage? How much should I turn it up?

What suggestions do you have to get better?

I doubt equipment is going to fix the straight line issue.

[cj737]

As I said, watch WTT videos on stick. Get thicker material. Practice, practice, practice.

Whenever I have had a new apprentice show up, the very first task they are required to do is to burn 50# of 1/8” 7018 rods in flat with their dominant hand. Then, 50# with their non-dominant hand. All they are doing is padding beads on 1” plate.

Then we do vertical up, 50# each hand. Then 50# horizontal, both hands. Then overhead, 50# each hand. Once they get that dialed in, we move to 10” pipe uphill, both hands.

This takes about 4-8 weeks depending upon how committed they are. But I guarantee you, once they complete it, they can pass any weld test, any inspection and be trusted to weld critical structural joints. It may seem time consuming and expensive, but it’s far cheaper than cutting out, re-welding or worse, replacing a several thousand dollar structural piece of steel that is ruined because they welded it wrong. Any god forbid they kill someone because their welds failed.

Welding is a learned skill. There are no shortcuts. It takes massive time, material, and commitment. Maybe you only be a hobby welder, but if you want quality welds you need to ask, listen, then do. Stop assuming, stop assailing, and stop criticizing others welds because you think you have the answers. You can not learn when you think you know.

That is a life lesson and it’s damn sure applicable to welding.

[taiwanluthiers]

So basically you have to burn about 200 pounds of filler material before you can get good?

When I practice what exactly am I looking for? If I'm burning 3mm rods, and the material is thick, how much amp do I use?

Why 7018?

[cj737]

I refer to 7018 as it’s a standard rod in the US. Probably 7016 in Asia, maybe Tweake knows better.

Watch the damn videos to understand what you’re looking for. And yes, it takes at least 50# in any position to become good. 100# in each position if you use both hands (not common for a hobby welder).

[taiwanluthiers]

I can get 7018 from China. They may have different designation though. Like J421 is 6011 for example.

[tweake]

I can get 7018 from China. They may have different designation though. Like J421 is 6011 for example.

j421 looks to be 6013
j506 looks to be 7016
i would have to find a chart for the specs. a lot of countries have their own specs so it can get confusing.
i recommend getting both. 6013 still commonly used and 7016 is used in industry, a very handy rod for repairs and general welding.

remember those guys practice so they can't get it wrong. thats what gets you the big money jobs.
in fact one problem i have is lack of practice. i really need to get more hood time.

[taiwanluthiers]

I'm just burning rods when I have time, not looking to get a job welding. Honestly if I want to get a welding job I want to do it somewhere where it's always freezing. I don't relish the idea of wearing PPE when it's 120F with 80% humidity. Cold weather means you can wear PPE.

It will probably take about 2 years for me to burn 50 pounds of any rod. Even longer for TIG, because TIG weld costs me more to do, since they require gas. I saw a video on weld.com that talks about cleaning the welding surface, the surface the ground clamp is clamped on, if the metal is on a weld table to clean both the underside of your metal and the surface of the weld table (if you are not attaching the ground clamp to the workpiece directly). He said you can lose amperage if the connections are not good.

Can you post a picture of what a good stick weld look like? I've ended up burning rods at the upper end of the amperage for that rod and I think I'm getting better "toe" penetration, but I don't want to burn 50-100 pounds of rods only to find out I've been doing it wrong the whole time.

I can stick 3mm pieces over and over again until the piece ends up being more than 12mm thick or something.

I know I'm getting way ahead of myself but how do I weld pieces with dissimilar thickness by stick welding? Say for example I need to weld 1mm pieces to a 3mm thick steel. I can use 1mm rods (there are 6013 rods this thin, but not 7018) but if I use low amperage it will not penetrate to the thicker steel, but if I use too high of an amperage, I will blow through the 1mm steel. I ask this because there's a lot of practical (but non critical or paid) applications I need to do, such as welding a thin piece of steel to a thicker backing plate to prevent warpage.

[cj737]

When you weld two different thicknesses, you move the arc or rod to the thicker piece and linger longer, then sweep to the thinner side and spend less time on thin. You still burn stick rods at the rod diameter, regardless of the thickness of the material. But… you also do your best to use the correct rod diameter for the job at hand.

That means, if you were stick welding 10mm thick steel, you would NOT use a 1mm rod. You would choose a 3mm rod or larger (the US equivalent would be 1/8” or 5/32”). Sometimes, you might even use 3/16” (5mm) and run the amperage nearer to 175/180 amps. You won’t be doing that in your hobby shop. But the principle with TIG and Stick for differing thickness is the same.

Watch this video for Stick welding https://youtu.be/YMr9f-1H5jk?si=W7k8gYIn1IWue7iL

[taiwanluthiers]

Thanks

So I guess 3/32" rod would work better then, and I would just basically start the arc on the thick material and then weave to the thin material taking care not to spend too much time on the thin material? The video didn't say what amp setting they used.

It's weird that I used 3/32" rod at 80 amp and it still seems cold to you. I ran it at 100 amps and it seems to work better (being thicker material it needs more juice I guess)

My problem with welding next to something thin is that just the blow from using a thicker rod at proper amperage was enough to blow holes in thin material. It also requires me to basically glob the weld on the thick material in order to get a good weld. TIG seems much better suited for this. Has anyone "dual shielded" TIG weld before? Meaning you use TIG torch on a stick electrode as filler rod? It seems like it would be a better choice for stainless weld because you wouldn't need such large cups, as the trailing beads would have been shielded by the flux (and therefore not oxidize)

[tweake]

Has anyone "dual shielded" TIG weld before? Meaning you use TIG torch on a stick electrode as filler rod? It seems like it would be a better choice for stainless weld because you wouldn't need such large cups, as the trailing beads would have been shielded by the flux (and therefore not oxidize)

only on utube to sucker in non-welders.
quit trying to use hacks, you need to learn to weld first.
8 cup works just fine for thin stuff. furick jassy10 will give you better coverage for the same gas flow.

the stick filler rod trick means your feeding in the rod the wrong way to get it to work and any slight splash of the flux your tungsten gets fouled.
the old saying "if its got slag you drag" but with tig you push and you feed the front of the puddle not the rear.
ignore the utube clickbait video's.

[taiwanluthiers]

I tried welding thin to thick today. It's HARD.

Hard as in there's a very fine line between getting it to weld, and blowing big holes into it. Unlike TIG you can't really see where the metal's gone (because the slag covers everything).

What I've found works best so far is weld alongside the thin material, and every so often (but not too often), weave into the thin material. Then chip the slag off, and see if it welded, if it did not then another pass and hopefully you do not blow holes into it.