Stick Welding Tips, Certification tests, machines, projects
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I collect old aircraft generators and they can be set up similar to the earlier engine driven welders.
http://www.api-assembled.com/design/tec ... welder.htm
Bill Beauregard wrote: As to how these machines change voltage I don't know. They have ranges of amperage, then fine control is done with voltage. At lower voltage arc length has more effect on voltage, therefore amperage. You are able to bury the electrode, melting lots of rod surrounded by cold steel preventing drips. As you used up substantial heat melting rod, less is dumped into the work piece. It freezes sooner.
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wheresmejumper
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i think you are confusing OCV with working voltage
Open Circuit Voltage is whats present before an arc is struck,and only directly affects how easy a rod will strike up
crappy welders could be as low as 48v,good ones up to 115v ive seen
Working Voltage is whats present when actually welding.this is what gives the welder its characteristics with a particular rod.
20v with smaller welders which struggle with 6010 or 7018. 25v is average and lincoln pipeliners up to 40v









Some older welders have adjustable voltage. I've lost track of the exact model, Travis Field demonstrates setting a 1959 Lincoln SA200? As to how these machines change voltage I don't know. They have ranges of amperage, then fine control is done with voltage. At lower voltage arc length has more effect on voltage, therefore amperage. You are able to bury the electrode, melting lots of rod surrounded by cold steel preventing drips. As you used up substantial heat melting rod, less is dumped into the work piece. It freezes sooner.

As for Dynasty, I haven't found volt/amp curves.

Bobcat does show the graphs with varying voltage over a narrower range controlled by what, I don't know. These seem to average 25 volts. I once had a 1940s era Westinghouse 600 amp engine welder. OCV was 36 at highest voltage. You adjusted down from there. When I first used it, it was owned by my father's friend. He had hundreds of hours experience with it. With his settings, it was wonderful! It had a Chrysler industrial 236 flat head 25" engine. With no exhaust, the noise was life changing![/quote]
Dancing with the blue lady
Bill Beauregard
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wheresmejumper wrote:i think you are confusing OCV with working voltage
Open Circuit Voltage is whats present before an arc is struck,and only directly affects how easy a rod will strike up
crappy welders could be as low as 48v,good ones up to 115v ive seen
Working Voltage is whats present when actually welding.this is what gives the welder its characteristics with a particular rod.
20v with smaller welders which struggle with 6010 or 7018. 25v is average and lincoln pipeliners up to 40v


Nope, crystal clear on OCV being different from welding voltage. I do know that in position welding you need watts. how they are provided is less critical. Higher voltage means lower amperage. Pipe welders aren't going to stop and readjust the machine as they move around the pipe. They need to prevent sag.






Some older welders have adjustable voltage. I've lost track of the exact model, Travis Field demonstrates setting a 1959 Lincoln SA200? As to how these machines change voltage I don't know. They have ranges of amperage, then fine control is done with voltage. At lower voltage arc length has more effect on voltage, therefore amperage. You are able to bury the electrode, melting lots of rod surrounded by cold steel preventing drips. As you used up substantial heat melting rod, less is dumped into the work piece. It freezes sooner.

As for Dynasty, I haven't found volt/amp curves.

Bobcat does show the graphs with varying voltage over a narrower range controlled by what, I don't know. These seem to average 25 volts. I once had a 1940s era Westinghouse 600 amp engine welder. OCV was 36 at highest voltage. You adjusted down from there. When I first used it, it was owned by my father's friend. He had hundreds of hours experience with it. With his settings, it was wonderful! It had a Chrysler industrial 236 flat head 25" engine. With no exhaust, the noise was life changing!
[/quote]
Bill Beauregard
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WerkSpace wrote:I collect old aircraft generators and they can be set up similar to the earlier engine driven welders.
http://www.api-assembled.com/design/tec ... welder.htm
Bill Beauregard wrote: As to how these machines change voltage I don't know. They have ranges of amperage, then fine control is done with voltage. At lower voltage arc length has more effect on voltage, therefore amperage. You are able to bury the electrode, melting lots of rod surrounded by cold steel preventing drips. As you used up substantial heat melting rod, less is dumped into the work piece. It freezes sooner.
I was referring to the Lincoln SA__ machines. I guess voltage is either controlled with the rheostat or engine throttle. Might amperage be a matter of varying inductance?
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The rheostat is controlling the current thru the stator, which controls the voltage output.
It functions as a sort of Magnetic Amplifier. The regulator on your car alternator works in a similar fashion.
The field terminals on a car alternator determine the output.
As your battery arrives at near full charge, the regulator will adjust the voltage on the field and the alternator will reduce its output substantially.

Just for fun, try this simple experiment. If you have a desk lamp that uses a small transformer to reduce the line voltage to the lamp's 12 volt bulb, place a permanent magnet next to the transformer. You will notice that you are able to control the 12 volt bulb's brightness by moving the magnet closer or farther away. This is because the transformer cannot reach magnetic saturation, so the secondary coil of the transformer has no way of producing current. Transformers can only function with expanding and collapsing magnetic fields. If the transformer is held fully or partially magnetized, the output of the secondary becomes limited.
Bill Beauregard wrote:
WerkSpace wrote:I collect old aircraft generators and they can be set up similar to the earlier engine driven welders.
http://www.api-assembled.com/design/tec ... welder.htm
Bill Beauregard wrote: As to how these machines change voltage I don't know. They have ranges of amperage, then fine control is done with voltage. At lower voltage arc length has more effect on voltage, therefore amperage. You are able to bury the electrode, melting lots of rod surrounded by cold steel preventing drips. As you used up substantial heat melting rod, less is dumped into the work piece. It freezes sooner.
I was referring to the Lincoln SA__ machines. I guess voltage is either controlled with the rheostat or engine throttle. Might amperage be a matter of varying inductance?
Bill Beauregard
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How then do they control amperage? With a MIG machine as voltage or electrical pressure rises more pressure pushes more current across the arc. I'm not sure I understand how it's done on a stick machine.
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WerkSpace wrote:I collect old aircraft generators and they can be set up similar to the earlier engine driven welders.
http://www.api-assembled.com/design/tec ... welder.htm
Bill Beauregard wrote: As to how these machines change voltage I don't know. They have ranges of amperage, then fine control is done with voltage. At lower voltage arc length has more effect on voltage, therefore amperage. You are able to bury the electrode, melting lots of rod surrounded by cold steel preventing drips. As you used up substantial heat melting rod, less is dumped into the work piece. It freezes sooner.
That seems like a fun project if you have the parts on hand and some money/time to blow ;D

For the rest of us plebes, a used engine welder or an inverter is probably the way to go. Still, a good resource to demonstrate the function of those welders/parts.
Bill Beauregard
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I have a number to choose from, in my obsession to weld as good as Field Res, (Travis Field) I'll buy what I have to. At present I have a Dynasty 280DX, A Bobcat 250, A Twentieth Century 295A AC with three voltage taps, an AC/DC Twentieth Century beater 295A transformer welder, and I think I gave away the best welder in the world a 194_ Westinghouse monster 600 A.
wheresmejumper
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You dont need any more welders to be as good as good as travis
on a pipeline speed is king,then you need to adjust both amperage and voltage to get the sweet spot between you,the rod,and the machine.then you can put down metal both quick and clean.
To get good at pipe all you need is a half decent welder.
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Bill Beauregard
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It would be very interesting to see a theory of operation for Bobcat and Trailblazer. If the old Lincoln pipeliner machines were so very sweet, what set them apart from newer machines. I do know a Bobcat does not weld as nice as a Trailblazer, but an expert can still do OK. Is the Bobcat missing something essential? or the old Lincolns overrated?
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I bought an old Lincoln SA-200 on my way home today. This welder has been converted for propane.
I tried it out and liked it, so as with everything else, it followed me home. 8-) Life is fun!
It will come in handy on the acreage, when I start messing around with shipping container garages.
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WerkSpace wrote:I bought an old Lincoln SA-200 on my way home today. This welder has been converted for propane.
I tried it out and liked it, so as with everything else, it followed me home. 8-) Life is fun!
It will come in handy on the acreage, when I start messing around with shipping container garages.
Score!
We are not lawyers nor physicians, but welders do it in all positions!

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Sweet!

I've burned a good 500# of rod on one or another of those well-made machines. I regret I never owned one.

Steve S
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I've been looking into how to adjust the 'auto idle down' time limit for the SA-200 welder to idle sooner.
Reference: http://www.lincolnelectric.com/Assets/U ... VM224A.pdf

The following diagram shows the electronic circuit board that controls the idle solenoid.
Note that there are two reed relays used as 'idle sensors'. The Auxiliary power idle sensor is on the board.
The DC generator idle sensor is mounted off the board. These are made with a magnetic coil and magnetic reed relay.
The idea is that when current is drawn via welding or via the auxiliary outlet, current passes thru a coil.
The coil creates a magnetic field and this field is used to activate a magnetic relay as a switch.

Resistors R1 and R2 are used to bias the transistor Q1 which turns on the power transistor Q2.
Q2 will have the current capacity to operate the idler solenoid which mechanically moves the throttle linkage on the engine.
The capacitor C1 is used as the delay mechanism. Lower its capacitance value and the engine will idle down sooner.
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I recently bought a Lincoln SA-200 welder, so I got more interested in this topic.
My welder has the propane conversion and uses a Continental engine (with magneto).
The generator is DC, so it provides a very smooth arc. No rectification or filtering required.

The welder has 5 amperage ranges that overlap and a fine amperage control.
The advantage of this setup is that the fine amperage control can be used to alter the characteristic of the weld.
The fine amperage control is used to adjust the percentage of one of the 5 amperage ranges.
It's also used to set the voltage, which is very important to the characteristic of the weld.

Example:
175 amps can be achieved on 2 of the 5 ranges. (240-160) and (190-120).
Use the fine amperage control to set your 175 amps (and voltage).
Remember, as the voltage goes down, the amperage goes up.
Voltage controls the height and width of the weld bead, while amperage controls penetration.

If you want a hard (arc force/dig) type of weld used on vertical or overhead
select 240-160 and set the fine amperage control setting for a lower voltage.
Increasing amperage while lowering voltage creates a narrower weld bead,
deeper penetration and a more fluid (hotter) weld puddle.


If you want a soft (buttery) type of weld used for normal horizontal position
select 190-120 and set the fine amperage control setting for a higher voltage.
Increasing voltage while lowering amperage creates a flat, wide bead with shallow penetration.
Long arcing also causes the weld puddle to freeze faster because it lowers the total amount of energy available.


Reference: http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/ar ... -training/

Bill Beauregard wrote:Several days ago I was welding vertical, and overhead lap joints on 3/8 plate. I was outside, it was snowing/raining. I was using some very old Certanium mild steel welding rod. I was on a 12' ladder. My helmet was fogged inside, drizzling outside. Conditions were less than optimal. The resulting welds were not as ugly as I would have expected! That got me on the track of wondering if there was more I could do to improve.

Travis Field has a video on U tube showing how to adjust a 1959 Lincoln SA 200 for vertical up welding. He makes the point that a low voltage/high amperage setting will work much better for "stacking metal" The low volt/high amp setting allows the welder to push the rod deeply into the base metal at the left, making a deep, small diameter puddle. Then move across to the right, repeating the process there. By the time one moves back to the left it has frozen, as the depth leaves the molten puddle surrounded by steel, it cools quickly. The high volume of rod deposit melting serves further to cool the surrounding.

I don't have an old Lincoln Pipeliner's welder. Of several stick welders I own, only the two 1970s vintage Twentieth Century clunkers have voltage choices. Weather is too cold to go try them. Is there a way to influence voltage on say a Bobcat 250, or a Dynasty 280. I've thought of coiling lead cable around a steel object, I think that limits both voltage and current. Arc length won't work as higher voltage will stop the arc and stick without a long enough arc.

Is this what makes these old Lincolns so revered?
Last edited by WerkSpace on Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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If you set a Lincoln welder the way Miller suggests, would the world end?
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weldin mike 27 wrote:If you set a Lincoln welder the way Miller suggests, would the world end?
Apparently not :lol:
I have a machine that has the engine and frame of a miller big 40 with the generator from a lincoln sa-200. No rips in the fabric of space-time seem to have occurred. :ugeek:
We are not lawyers nor physicians, but welders do it in all positions!

Miller Dynasty 280DX
Lincoln 210 MP
Miller 625 X-Treme
Hobart Handler 150
Victor Oxygen-acetylene torch
Miller/Lincoln Big 40-SA200 hybrid
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Good to know. Just don't use 6013s and 7018s on the same job or we are all doomed. Doomed, I tells ya.
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Miller and Lincoln play very well together.

Today, I bought a Miller X-treme 12VS for my SA-200.
My engine driven welder now has Stick, TIG and MIG capability. Very cool...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ar1TxSYEg38
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aueqgwqZg08
weldin mike 27 wrote:If you set a Lincoln welder the way Miller suggests, would the world end?
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I've used the 12VS with a Lincoln Invertec 275 as the power source.

Seemed to be a peaceful marriage.

Steve S
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I like the fact that the drive rollers are interchangeable with my Millermatic 210 shop machines. It came with .045" flux core rollers and I typically use .035" solid core rollers on my shop machines. So, I borrowed the rollers from one of my Millermatic 210s to fit the suitcase machine. That Millermatic machine is setup with a spool gun anyway, so it won't miss those rollers as they are never used.

The only thing remaining to do was purchase some .035" contact tips for the Bernard 400 amp gun. $16 for ten tips on eBay including shipping and they are already on their way.

One thing that I noticed is that this suitcase weighs 35 lbs empty and about 80 lbs when you fit 12" spool of wire in it. I might figure out a way to put some wheels on this case. Afterall, who wants to lug 80 lbs around, plus all the extension cables.
Otto Nobedder wrote:I've used the 12VS with a Lincoln Invertec 275 as the power source. Seemed to be a peaceful marriage. Steve S
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Fabulous to see the kids playing together. Now we need to get the parents more friendly. Baby steps eh?
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WerkSpace wrote:
SA-200 Faceplate.jpg
I recently bought a Lincoln SA-200 welder, so I got more interested in this topic.
My welder has the propane conversion and uses a Continental engine (with magneto).
The generator is DC, so it provides a very smooth arc. No rectification or filtering required.

The welder has 5 amperage ranges that overlap and a fine amperage control.
The advantage of this setup is that the fine amperage control can be used to alter the characteristic of the weld.
The fine amperage control is used to adjust the percentage of one of the 5 amperage ranges.
It's also used to set the voltage, which is very important to the characteristic of the weld.

Example:
175 amps can be achieved on 2 of the 5 ranges. (240-160) and (190-120).
Use the fine amperage control to set your 175 amps (and voltage).
Remember, as the voltage goes down, the amperage goes up.
Voltage controls the height and width of the weld bead, while amperage controls penetration.

If you want a hard (arc force/dig) type of weld used on vertical or overhead
select 240-160 and set the fine amperage control setting for a lower voltage.
Increasing amperage while lowering voltage creates a narrower weld bead,
deeper penetration and a more fluid (hotter) weld puddle.


If you want a soft (buttery) type of weld used for normal horizontal position
select 190-120 and set the fine amperage control setting for a higher voltage.
Increasing voltage while lowering amperage creates a flat, wide bead with shallow penetration.
Long arcing also causes the weld puddle to freeze faster because it lowers the total amount of energy available.


Reference: http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/ar ... -training/

Bill Beauregard wrote:Several days ago I was welding vertical, and overhead lap joints on 3/8 plate. I was outside, it was snowing/raining. I was using some very old Certanium mild steel welding rod. I was on a 12' ladder. My helmet was fogged inside, drizzling outside. Conditions were less than optimal. The resulting welds were not as ugly as I would have expected! That got me on the track of wondering if there was more I could do to improve.

Travis Field has a video on U tube showing how to adjust a 1959 Lincoln SA 200 for vertical up welding. He makes the point that a low voltage/high amperage setting will work much better for "stacking metal" The low volt/high amp setting allows the welder to push the rod deeply into the base metal at the left, making a deep, small diameter puddle. Then move across to the right, repeating the process there. By the time one moves back to the left it has frozen, as the depth leaves the molten puddle surrounded by steel, it cools quickly. The high volume of rod deposit melting serves further to cool the surrounding.

I don't have an old Lincoln Pipeliner's welder. Of several stick welders I own, only the two 1970s vintage Twentieth Century clunkers have voltage choices. Weather is too cold to go try them. Is there a way to influence voltage on say a Bobcat 250, or a Dynasty 280. I've thought of coiling lead cable around a steel object, I think that limits both voltage and current. Arc length won't work as higher voltage will stop the arc and stick without a long enough arc.

Is this what makes these old Lincolns so revered?

So I have a question about finding the setting for amperage on this face plate. I weld daily with an SA200 on pipe.

For my example I'll use the selection that I was using just today capping a 6" schedule 40 with a 5/32 70+ (8010) rod in the 3rd gear (190-120) with the rheostat at about 65.

My mathematical reasoning says that gear has a range of 70 amps which I divide 9 time to give me the increment value of 7.77 amps per every 10 units on the fine current adjustment.
7.77×6.5=50.55
50.55+120=170.5 amps sitting on 190 and 65

To achieve 170 amps in the 240 gear with this reasoning would be described as

240-160= 80
80÷9= 8.88
8.88×1.5= 13.33
13.33+160=173

This would mean that to get the same amperage in 240 gear as in my normal operation I would have to have my rheostat set in between bottoming out (10) and 15.

I can with out a doubt promise that if I tried to fire up with a 5/32 on 240 and 15 I would have a very difficult time maintaining my arc and would not be putting a decent cap on with the rod due to it. I figure that I would be closer to around 30 on the rheostat.

Similarly when running the 3/16 70+ rod I am capping on 190 and 75/80 or 240 and about 50/55 or 178/182 & 204.4/226.6 respectively.

If the rheostat dial is supposed to be a percentage of the range selector and that the same amperage can be obtained, why is either my mathematics or my amperage selection so far off.

I am ignoring travel speed in the equation as well as the possibility of arc length variation due to the open current voltage being set at 93 at 100 on the rheostat in either gear.

Any clarification?
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ryan.k.mcdaniel wrote: So I have a question about finding the setting for amperage on this face plate. I weld daily with an SA200 on pipe.

For my example I'll use the selection that I was using just today capping a 6" schedule 40 with a 5/32 70+ (8010) rod in the 3rd gear (190-120) with the rheostat at about 65.

My mathematical reasoning says that gear has a range of 70 amps which I divide 9 time to give me the increment value of 7.77 amps per every 10 units on the fine current adjustment.
7.77×6.5=50.55
50.55+120=170.5 amps sitting on 190 and 65

To achieve 170 amps in the 240 gear with this reasoning would be described as

240-160= 80
80÷9= 8.88
8.88×1.5= 13.33
13.33+160=173

This would mean that to get the same amperage in 240 gear as in my normal operation I would have to have my rheostat set in between bottoming out (10) and 15.

I can with out a doubt promise that if I tried to fire up with a 5/32 on 240 and 15 I would have a very difficult time maintaining my arc and would not be putting a decent cap on with the rod due to it. I figure that I would be closer to around 30 on the rheostat.

Similarly when running the 3/16 70+ rod I am capping on 190 and 75/80 or 240 and about 50/55 or 178/182 & 204.4/226.6 respectively.

If the rheostat dial is supposed to be a percentage of the range selector and that the same amperage can be obtained, why is either my mathematics or my amperage selection so far off.

I am ignoring travel speed in the equation as well as the possibility of arc length variation due to the open current voltage being set at 93 at 100 on the rheostat in either gear.

Any clarification?
I don't weld pipe and am strictly part-time.

I divide by 10 because the math is easy.
Lowest (0) corresponds to lowest in coarse range (120).
Highest (10) corresponds to highest in coarse range (190).
Add or subtract 7 between (in this case).

Just because the amp ranges overlap doesn't mean a particular rod runs well in both theoretical math equivalent settings.

"Adjust recipe to taste." :)
Dave J.

Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~

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Tried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.
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