I get the same look here. Salespeople are willfully ignorant and lazy. If they were so knowledgeable they would be high-priced welders but they choose to be parasites and sell you things and get a cut and look down their noses at the people who actually get dirty for a livin. I forgot to mention I hate salesmen and truck driversGavin Melville wrote:I can't get 4943 in New Zealand - just get blank looks.Olivero wrote:Try 4943, its known to be stronger than 4043, especially in fillet welds.
I think you might be bridging the weld so instead of welding into the joint, you are creating a blob that hits the top piece and then bottom piece but not penetrating the root. You need to wait for the puddle to generate and since your metal is so fat, you don't have to worry about burning through, so put the heat to it after beveling it, wait until you see that puddle before adding filler, you should be able to SEE the 2 pieces joining at the root.
Agreed about bridging. I probably have two puddles which I bridge. I've always had trouble with fillet welds, perhaps this is why.
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exnailpounder
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exnailpounder
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No...not them!LtBadd wrote:Beer truck drivers?exnailpounder wrote: I forgot to mention I hate salesmen and truck drivers
Ifyoucantellmewhatthissaysiwillbuyyouabeer.
Lol, its possible. Welding aluminum takes a bit of practice in general.
I understood the part of you hitting it with a hammer, it's still odd it cracks in the center is all I am saying. I have destruction tested my welds before and then normally break at the edge of the welds, more so the HAZ than the weld itself.
You don't NEED 4943, 4043 is still fine, so if its hard to get, don't bother, its just made to be a bit stronger than 4043 and especially in fillet welds but not like a night and day difference.
I used to weld fillet's like what I think is happening here, just pull the electrode out a smidge more so you can really get into the corner.
I understood the part of you hitting it with a hammer, it's still odd it cracks in the center is all I am saying. I have destruction tested my welds before and then normally break at the edge of the welds, more so the HAZ than the weld itself.
You don't NEED 4943, 4043 is still fine, so if its hard to get, don't bother, its just made to be a bit stronger than 4043 and especially in fillet welds but not like a night and day difference.
I used to weld fillet's like what I think is happening here, just pull the electrode out a smidge more so you can really get into the corner.
if there's a welder, there's a way
exnailpounder
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Can anyone actually dispute me on this?exnailpounder wrote:I get the same look here. Salespeople are willfully ignorant and lazy. If they were so knowledgeable they would be high-priced welders but they choose to be parasites and sell you things and get a cut and look down their noses at the people who actually get dirty for a livin. I forgot to mention I hate salesmen and truck driversGavin Melville wrote:I can't get 4943 in New Zealand - just get blank looks.Olivero wrote:Try 4943, its known to be stronger than 4043, especially in fillet welds.
I think you might be bridging the weld so instead of welding into the joint, you are creating a blob that hits the top piece and then bottom piece but not penetrating the root. You need to wait for the puddle to generate and since your metal is so fat, you don't have to worry about burning through, so put the heat to it after beveling it, wait until you see that puddle before adding filler, you should be able to SEE the 2 pieces joining at the root.
Agreed about bridging. I probably have two puddles which I bridge. I've always had trouble with fillet welds, perhaps this is why.
Ifyoucantellmewhatthissaysiwillbuyyouabeer.
Those cracks are not hammered cracks they are hot short cracks (shrinkage) caused by undersized weld with insufficient heat.
5356 filler is the best choice for this joint for strength.
@Exie , I will dispute you on this.
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5356 filler is the best choice for this joint for strength.
@Exie , I will dispute you on this.
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Flat out like a lizard drinkin'
Gavin Melville
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They aren't hot short cracks, it looked fine before I beat it to death. If you look at the vice marks you can see how hard it was to break.
Nail,
I don't think a whole lot is demanded of store clerks or the guys at the desk in the stores anymore, they just sell the stuff they have, says MIG tip on it, well does it fit all MIG guns? Nope, but why would they bother learning it all if they are just selling supplies. I think the idea is that you know what you need and they just look for whatever you say so they don't need to know what you are talking about, just be able to spell the word you are saying which google can fix if you can't.
But I have seen some good sales people out there too, some guys that really know what they are talking about and used to work in the field but for whichever reason no longer does.
I don't think a whole lot is demanded of store clerks or the guys at the desk in the stores anymore, they just sell the stuff they have, says MIG tip on it, well does it fit all MIG guns? Nope, but why would they bother learning it all if they are just selling supplies. I think the idea is that you know what you need and they just look for whatever you say so they don't need to know what you are talking about, just be able to spell the word you are saying which google can fix if you can't.
But I have seen some good sales people out there too, some guys that really know what they are talking about and used to work in the field but for whichever reason no longer does.
if there's a welder, there's a way
Ok, I didn't zoom in for a close look. I Stand corrected. So the weld has reasonable strength for the probable duty intended already. If you want the best strength you can get out the joint then what I said previously still applies.
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I see in the original pictures a complete lack of root penetration. I also saw a comment that you can't get root penetration without the weld dropping out.
That's nonsense. I see in the broken weld picture you didn't even nick the edge of the tube. You're building a weld bridge, not making a weld joint. The root must break the edge of that tube if you want strength in the joint.
Steve S
That's nonsense. I see in the broken weld picture you didn't even nick the edge of the tube. You're building a weld bridge, not making a weld joint. The root must break the edge of that tube if you want strength in the joint.
Steve S
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I realise I'm not getting root penetration, but the comment about the weld dropping out wasn't mine. A work in progress.
You've gotten all the right information, but its scattered all over the place within these posts...
- 200 Amps is low for the wall thickness, especially on an ally joint. Bump it up.
- Probably, your tungsten is too far away from the joint when you hold the cup into the notch. Lay your filler wire along the joint, place your cup, then look how far away it is. Ideally, it will be just farther than the filler thickness.
- Preheat both pieces to establish a puddle faster.
You can experiment with these settings by tacking. If you can get the weld to be more concave than convex, you're getting it deeper. 1"x3/16" square tubing is a fright to weld because the heat accumulates so quickly that you can not loiter once you get your puddle, but you have to get the puddle right first. Start away from the corner, then back up to it, or weld from the middle of the face around the corner to the next. Starting and stopping in the middle and tie-ins in the middle. Easier to avoid blowing out your tubing if you are welding fully around the tube.
- 200 Amps is low for the wall thickness, especially on an ally joint. Bump it up.
- Probably, your tungsten is too far away from the joint when you hold the cup into the notch. Lay your filler wire along the joint, place your cup, then look how far away it is. Ideally, it will be just farther than the filler thickness.
- Preheat both pieces to establish a puddle faster.
You can experiment with these settings by tacking. If you can get the weld to be more concave than convex, you're getting it deeper. 1"x3/16" square tubing is a fright to weld because the heat accumulates so quickly that you can not loiter once you get your puddle, but you have to get the puddle right first. Start away from the corner, then back up to it, or weld from the middle of the face around the corner to the next. Starting and stopping in the middle and tie-ins in the middle. Easier to avoid blowing out your tubing if you are welding fully around the tube.
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Thanks,
All that makes sense. If I join the faces first and extend the weld a little around the corner I get better results on the fillets. I'll try starting in the middle on this. I've only got 230 Amps, so that will have to do.
In the past I've ended up with concave welds once I got things hot enough, needing a second pass.
I was hoping for small neat welds
All that makes sense. If I join the faces first and extend the weld a little around the corner I get better results on the fillets. I'll try starting in the middle on this. I've only got 230 Amps, so that will have to do.
In the past I've ended up with concave welds once I got things hot enough, needing a second pass.
I was hoping for small neat welds
You might try your smash test on those "concave" welds too. Don't discount them due to their appearance. As long as you are getting sufficient fill, the height of the weld doesn't matter as muchGavin Melville wrote: In the past I've ended up with concave welds once I got things hot enough, needing a second pass.
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That comment about full pen was me and the truth is you can't get complete pen on a filet. You can cut and etch any filet and see what penetration you get and they are never all the way through, now on a gapped butt weld you can get full pen. If you did get complete pen, that means you would be all the way through 3/16" of wall, into the inside of the tube and then you would have an overheated mess. I suggested the OP was dipping in the keyhole and not letting the puddles join. You have to dip in the keyhole on a butt joint cause thats all you have to dip in. I guess I had typing palsey when I wrote that...alcohol was involved.Otto Nobedder wrote:I see in the original pictures a complete lack of root penetration. I also saw a comment that you can't get root penetration without the weld dropping out.
That's nonsense. I see in the broken weld picture you didn't even nick the edge of the tube. You're building a weld bridge, not making a weld joint. The root must break the edge of that tube if you want strength in the joint.
Steve S
Ifyoucantellmewhatthissaysiwillbuyyouabeer.
You can still get "small neat welds" if you want. Just bevel the joint prior to welding, I have a Dynasty 200 machine, I build a fair amount of stuff in commercial use and some things are thicker than what 200 A can handle so you BEVEL it to make the thickness less right in the joint, just pick up a grinder and grind it in the corner and bring it in 1/8" or so on both sides or 3/16" on one side and weld the piss out of it and make sure you get that joint and you can have some really pretty welds by the end of it that won't have to be super big and ugly.Gavin Melville wrote:Thanks,
I've only got 230 Amps, so that will have to do.
In the past I've ended up with concave welds once I got things hot enough, needing a second pass.
I was hoping for small neat welds
Don't even bother with the second pass. Not necessary if you bevel and it double pass looks like shit IMO.... Unless its pipe, then It's good.
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What I said didn't quite lead to what I meant. I meant penetrating the full depth of the fillet, fusing the corner of the leg , as opposed to bridging over it and leaving the corner intact. I wasn't trying to imply full penetration.exnailpounder wrote:That comment about full pen was me and the truth is you can't get complete pen on a filet. You can cut and etch any filet and see what penetration you get and they are never all the way through, now on a gapped butt weld you can get full pen. If you did get complete pen, that means you would be all the way through 3/16" of wall, into the inside of the tube and then you would have an overheated mess. I suggested the OP was dipping in the keyhole and not letting the puddles join. You have to dip in the keyhole on a butt joint cause thats all you have to dip in. I guess I had typing palsey when I wrote that...alcohol was involved.Otto Nobedder wrote:I see in the original pictures a complete lack of root penetration. I also saw a comment that you can't get root penetration without the weld dropping out.
That's nonsense. I see in the broken weld picture you didn't even nick the edge of the tube. You're building a weld bridge, not making a weld joint. The root must break the edge of that tube if you want strength in the joint.
Steve S
Sloppy language on my part.
Full penetration can be achieved on a fillet through prep work, by beveling the leg to a small land or a knife edge, though it's not always practical or useful. When both sides of a leg are welded, or in this case the tube is welded 100%, full throat depth is all that's required so your weld is as strong as it's size implies.
Steve S
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Could one of make a simple drawing of how a beveled fillet joint might look - I must be thicker than usual this morning.
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I'll give it a shot. I haven't used MS Paint in a long time. Failing that, maybe a bar-napkin sketch to scan or photograph.
Edit... sketch it is. Can't draw a straight line with my trackball.
Steve S
Edit... sketch it is. Can't draw a straight line with my trackball.
Steve S
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That took a minute... I forgot I needed to reinstall the drivers for my printer/scanner.
Here's a crude sketch, showing a tee joint, and a pipe-to-plate. I've drawn it with a land, rather than a knife-edge, since you're working with aluminum. A knife-edge would just blow out. The bevel will need to be at least 45* up to about 60, depending on the thickness of the material, so you can get in to the corner.
Working with Stainless would require purging the back side of the tee or the inside of the pipe/tube for the first pass, since the material is thinned out enough for full penetration.
Steve S
Here's a crude sketch, showing a tee joint, and a pipe-to-plate. I've drawn it with a land, rather than a knife-edge, since you're working with aluminum. A knife-edge would just blow out. The bevel will need to be at least 45* up to about 60, depending on the thickness of the material, so you can get in to the corner.
Working with Stainless would require purging the back side of the tee or the inside of the pipe/tube for the first pass, since the material is thinned out enough for full penetration.
Steve S
- Scan.jpg (23.93 KiB) Viewed 1339 times
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Ok, got that. I'll be at work in an hour and can try it then. I didn't think of that, on the surface it appears to make the problem worse.
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It's not really needed for what you're doing. It's seldom needed unless a procedure calls for it. The trick is to get the tungsten very close when you start your arc, and get both sides of the joint to puddle all the way to the corner. You may have to manipulate the torch, as the arc will favor one side. Once you're molten to the corner on both pieces, add your first dab of rod, drawing the torch back a bit as the puddle will swell rather quickly. Advance to the front edge of the puddle, and don't add rod until you see the previous addition start to flow into the corner. Lather, rinse, repeat.
Steve S
Steve S
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Thanks Otto,
Fillet joints have always been my nightmare. All other joints, and "open" fillet welds are fine. Once I get to 90 deg it just doesn't work so well. This thread has given me some good ideas.
Fillet joints have always been my nightmare. All other joints, and "open" fillet welds are fine. Once I get to 90 deg it just doesn't work so well. This thread has given me some good ideas.
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