[DLF]

Hello,

While browsing the net for tig coolers I stumbled upon CO2 laser tube chiller units.

What I noticed was the tig torch water coolers tend to use a radiator/fan to cool the water while the laser tube chiller uses refrigerant to cool the water.

Would such unit work for tig torch cooling? I mean the refrigerant would cool the water much better than a simple fan would.

And the price looks roughly the same.

Thank you


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[Oscar]

As long as the heat rejection BTU/min is sufficient to cool the water/coolant, it should work as long as it's duty cycle is not exceed.

[tweake]

it sounds like what your talking about is a refrigerated cooler.
there simply is no need. you do not need to get the coolant that cold.
there is problems if coolant get to cold and most importantly the huge cost.
it would at least double the price and require a bit of power to run.
all for no advantage.

however i do think tig water coolers are ridiculously over priced.

[DLF]

But would it work? What about water pressure? Are the 2 types of units comparable regarding water pressure and flow?

My idea is in the future to also fiddle with a CO2 laser and since I will not be doing that much welding perhaps I could have just the laser water chiller and share that with the welder.


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[Oscar]

You need about 50psi with the tig torch connected.

[Spartan]

It's an interesting idea. Probably one of those things you would need to try out/experiment with to see if it will actually work in that application or not.

I do agree with Tweake that it would likely be overkill, and there are perhaps downsides to having the coolant too cold, such as potential frost and/or condensation forming on the torch/connectors, or even some of the torch lines not handling cold coolant well over time. I'm guessing here, but when you take something that was designed to operate in ambient & warm temperatures, and then introduce the opposite to that, you can sometimes end up with unexpected results.

[BugHunter]

Stuff like this reminds me of my brother telling a story from long ago, at work (he worked for an aviation engine mfgr), they had some large sweat-fit parts that had internal rings which had been installed incorrectly and needed taken back apart. They needed to reverse the process of assembly, which was to heat the outer ring, freeze the inner, and then quickly slip the two together after which they were 'forever'.

After several attempts by various depts with even using liquid nitrogen to cool the inner part, they were not successful. As a last resort, he tried heating the parts and using salted icewater with a manifold he made to keep the water away from the outer ring. Viola...

High tech isn't always better.

[TraditionalToolworks]

After several attempts by various depts with even using liquid nitrogen to cool the inner part, they were not successful. As a last resort, he tried heating the parts and using salted icewater with a manifold he made to keep the water away from the outer ring. Viola...

High tech isn't always better.

Sometimes you need to think outside the box. That's the problem with a lot of young kids these days, they're afraid to think outside of the box for themselves.

More than 30 years ago I worked for one of the top 10 banks in America, I setup PCs for the top Executives who flew to work in helicopters. We created a fiber based network for them as it was state of the art at the time (still is pretty much). On a Saturday me and my boss met with the Network company who we hired to install the fiber cable, but we ran into a small snag. Fiber needs to be sanded flat on the end so the light will transmit properly, and those ends need to be inserted properly into the connector so that when the transmitter sends light on specific bandwidth it will all work. This is to paraphrase...anyway, the company forgot their heat gun to shrink wrap the end of the connector properly, and no place open on Saturday...they went to the drug store and bought the largest hair dryer they could find, but it wouldn't get the shrink hot enough...my boss smoked, so I said, "why don't we try and use your bic lighter?". He said, "yeah, that's got to be able to get hot enough.". The network installers laughed at us and said it would never work. Me and my boss said we had nothing to loose, if it didn't work they would come back and install the connector properly. Not only did it work, but 4+ years later when I left the bank that fiber network was still running with zero errors, it was using IBM Token Ring, which unlike Ethernet doesn't have packet collisions. To this day it was the cleanest network I've ever used.

Sometimes you need to think outside the box to get things done.

[Spartan]

After several attempts by various depts with even using liquid nitrogen to cool the inner part, they were not successful. As a last resort, he tried heating the parts and using salted icewater with a manifold he made to keep the water away from the outer ring. Viola...

High tech isn't always better.

Sometimes you need to think outside the box. That's the problem with a lot of young kids these days, they're afraid to think outside of the box for themselves.

More than 30 years ago I worked for one of the top 10 banks in America, I setup PCs for the top Executives who flew to work in helicopters. We created a fiber based network for them as it was state of the art at the time (still is pretty much). On a Saturday me and my boss met with the Network company who we hired to install the fiber cable, but we ran into a small snag. Fiber needs to be sanded flat on the end so the light will transmit properly, and those ends need to be inserted properly into the connector so that when the transmitter sends light on specific bandwidth it will all work. This is to paraphrase...anyway, the company forgot their heat gun to shrink wrap the end of the connector properly, and no place open on Saturday...they went to the drug store and bought the largest hair dryer they could find, but it wouldn't get the shrink hot enough...my boss smoked, so I said, "why don't we try and use your bic lighter?". He said, "yeah, that's got to be able to get hot enough.". The network installers laughed at us and said it would never work. Me and my boss said we had nothing to loose, if it didn't work they would come back and install the connector properly. Not only did it work, but 4+ years later when I left the bank that fiber network was still running with zero errors, it was using IBM Token Ring, which unlike Ethernet doesn't have packet collisions. To this day it was the cleanest network I've ever used.

Sometimes you need to think outside the box to get things done.

I had to re-terminate a 3-connector, 300 meter, fiber optic ROV tether onboard a ship five times last week because the jagoff crane operator kept over-tensioning the tether and breaking all my fibers.

Fun fun. Got pretty good at the re-terms, though.

[TraditionalToolworks]

I had to re-terminate a 3-connector, 300 meter, fiber optic ROV tether onboard a ship five times last week because the jagoff crane operator kept over-tensioning the tether and breaking all my fibers.

Fun fun. Got pretty good at the re-terms, though.

You'd think the guy would learn rather than keep making the same mistake, heh?

People don't seem to use their brains very often these days...

[Spartan]

I had to re-terminate a 3-connector, 300 meter, fiber optic ROV tether onboard a ship five times last week because the jagoff crane operator kept over-tensioning the tether and breaking all my fibers.

Fun fun. Got pretty good at the re-terms, though.

You'd think the guy would learn rather than keep making the same mistake, heh?

People don't seem to use their brains very often these days...

Yup. You'd think. But at least I learned after the fifth break and fired him. He was a contractor, not an employee.

[BugHunter]

Sometimes you need to think outside the box to get things done.

Sorta like asymmetric waveforms and amperages... I've just never had a need to go there before.

[tweake]

so I said, "why don't we try and use your bic lighter?". He said, "yeah, that's got to be able to get hot enough.". The network installers laughed at us and said it would never work.

the network guys where never sparkies. really common to use use lighters on heatshrink.

[Spartan]

so I said, "why don't we try and use your bic lighter?". He said, "yeah, that's got to be able to get hot enough.". The network installers laughed at us and said it would never work.

the network guys where never sparkies. really common to use use lighters on heatshrink.

Very common for work on copper conductors, not so much for fiber which is much more sensitive....sort of. Whatever gets the job done, though! That's all that matters.

[TraditionalToolworks]

the network guys where never sparkies. really common to use use lighters on heatshrink.

Not exactly just the heatshrink, it needs to melt the special epoxy in the connectors as well.

I don't want to continue this in DLF's thread, he was mostly discussing water chillers.

[Spartan]

the network guys where never sparkies. really common to use use lighters on heatshrink.

Not exactly just the heatshrink, it needs to melt the special epoxy in the connectors as well.

I don't want to continue this in DLF's thread, he was mostly discussing water chillers.

What, a bunch of welders can't devolve a cooler conversation into the logistics of fiber optic terminations??

Alright, back to the coolers.

[TraditionalToolworks]

Alright, back to the coolers.

Indeed, I have a couple Qs.

What I noticed was the tig torch water coolers tend to use a radiator/fan to cool the water while the laser tube chiller uses refrigerant to cool the water.

What I'm curious about here Andrei is, does this make these coolers more dangerous, similar to Air Conditioning in automobiles? Seems it's hard to get refrigerant these days. But the water cooler with the radiator can use various types of radiator fluid.

Is this type of cooler not applied for welding today?

Spartan,

In regard to the HTP vs. Everlast coolers, I've noticed that the Everlast coolers have some type of plastic bottle on the front, where the HTP unit doesn't. Does that make them easier to refill with fresh coolant?

Also, how often do the coolers need to have the coolant replaced?

I have never used a cooler, so curious about it, and as you I have felt if I was to get one I would most likely get the HTP as it's about the same price as most of the one that are definitely from China. I don't know where the HTP is made, but I once suggested the HTP 221 may have some Chinese parts in it, and Jeff Nolan snapped at me and said it was entirely made of Italian parts, which I kind of find hard to believe these days.

I've seen some people using Miller Coolmate coolers on other machines, but even they seem pretty pricey used in my area, in the neighborhood of $600-$800 used. There's a couple Dialarcs with Coolmates that the sellers are asking $2k+ for. Some guys are pretty proud of their old Miller machines...

[Spartan]

TTW - You may be thinking of the larger, 400A model that Everlast sells. That is the one that has part of the bottle sticking out of the front. I have the smaller version which oddly is rated at 350A, so not sure why they really sell both. This is the one that HTP seems to sell a nearly identical version of (pics below). Only differences I can tell are the flow alarm and the lack of QDs for the water lines on the HTP. Both of which I prefer.

As for changing coolant: I use a 50/50 mix of RV antifreeze (the pink stuff) and distilled water (total cost about $3). I check it every couple months to make sure nothing is floating around in it and the color looks as expected. I also top it off every few weeks or so with distilled water since you lose some coolant when you swap torches or clumsily move the cooler around with no torch attached. Other than that, I have yet to ever completely change the coolant going on two years since buying my first one, and have had ZERO issues with them.

Pics below. Notice the similarities between the HTP and the Everlast. Same exact price. Interesting...

Screenshot_2020-06-20 Water Cooler for TIG Welder, Invertig 221 TIG Welding Machine USAWeld com.png (190.91 KiB) Viewed 2416 times

Screenshot_2020-06-20 PowerCool W300 (240V) - Welding Water Cooler Everlast Generators.png (162.81 KiB) Viewed 2416 times

[TraditionalToolworks]

Hmmm...I thought the HTP was about $500, maybe that was a dual voltage and the one you mention is single voltage. I was definitely looking at a DV as I would want the option to use it on a 120v circuit I have in my garage so I could use the entire 240v circuit to run the welder. Of course then it needs a new torch... everything is a can of worms...

I know the coolers don't take very much power, so at some point it might make sense to upgrade my 30 amp 240v circuit with a 40 amp breaker. Probably could run the welder and cooler off 40 amp, but not entirely sure.

The ones I saw looked like a prego turkey with that plastic bottle hanging out the front.

2 years??? Maybe a good time to think about replacing it, coolant is cheap and it's probably good maintenance. Better to replace it before it fails...

[Spartan]

Hmmm...I thought the HTP was about $500, maybe that was a dual voltage and the one you mention is single voltage. I was definitely looking at a DV as I would want the option to use it on a 120v circuit I have in my garage so I could use the entire 240v circuit to run the welder. Of course then it needs a new torch... everything is a can of worms...

I know the coolers don't take very much power, so at some point it might make sense to upgrade my 30 amp 240v circuit with a 40 amp breaker. Probably could run the welder and cooler off 40 amp, but not entirely sure.

The ones I saw looked like a prego turkey with that plastic bottle hanging out the front.

2 years??? Maybe a good time to think about replacing it, coolant is cheap and it's probably good maintenance. Better to replace it before it fails...

Yes, I did buy the 220v only model, which I do believe is $50 less now that you mention it.

And you're right about changing the coolant, but I inspect it and the torches regularly and have seen nothing amiss, and don't worry too much about it in what is such a relatively simple closed loop system. But most likely I won't let it hit year 3 without changing it

[DLF]

When in operation, when the torch and water have already warmed up, what is the water temp at the chiller input and output nozzles?


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[DLF]

Alright, back to the coolers.

Indeed, I have a couple Qs.

What I noticed was the tig torch water coolers tend to use a radiator/fan to cool the water while the laser tube chiller uses refrigerant to cool the water.

What I'm curious about here Andrei is, does this make these coolers more dangerous, similar to Air Conditioning in automobiles? Seems it's hard to get refrigerant these days. But the water cooler with the radiator can use various types of radiator fluid.

Is this type of cooler not applied for welding today?

Spartan,

In regard to the HTP vs. Everlast coolers, I've noticed that the Everlast coolers have some type of plastic bottle on the front, where the HTP unit doesn't. Does that make them easier to refill with fresh coolant?

Also, how often do the coolers need to have the coolant replaced?

I have never used a cooler, so curious about it, and as you I have felt if I was to get one I would most likely get the HTP as it's about the same price as most of the one that are definitely from China. I don't know where the HTP is made, but I once suggested the HTP 221 may have some Chinese parts in it, and Jeff Nolan snapped at me and said it was entirely made of Italian parts, which I kind of find hard to believe these days.

I've seen some people using Miller Coolmate coolers on other machines, but even they seem pretty pricey used in my area, in the neighborhood of $600-$800 used. There's a couple Dialarcs with Coolmates that the sellers are asking $2k+ for. Some guys are pretty proud of their old Miller machines...

Well, not more dangerous than your household freezer. I mean they use r234a which is eco-friendly and if you do not bash the unit to break the refrigerant lines there will be no leakage.

In cars the AC radiator will puncture in case of accident or because of small stones on the road. On my smart it happened to me once because the front grille has a honeycomb pattern large enough to let small stones pass through and hot the AC radiator.


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[Spartan]

When in operation, when the torch and water have already warmed up, what is the water temp at the chiller input and output nozzles?


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Are you asking me regarding the HTP, or was that directed at someone else?

[Spartan]

Hmmm...I thought the HTP was about $500, maybe that was a dual voltage and the one you mention is single voltage. I was definitely looking at a DV as I would want the option to use it on a 120v circuit I have in my garage so I could use the entire 240v circuit to run the welder. Of course then it needs a new torch... everything is a can of worms...

I know the coolers don't take very much power, so at some point it might make sense to upgrade my 30 amp 240v circuit with a 40 amp breaker. Probably could run the welder and cooler off 40 amp, but not entirely sure.

The ones I saw looked like a prego turkey with that plastic bottle hanging out the front.

2 years??? Maybe a good time to think about replacing it, coolant is cheap and it's probably good maintenance. Better to replace it before it fails...

I checked the prices, and Everlast doesn't sell a dual voltage model. They have either 120v or 240v. So, the HTP and Everlast are indeed the same price ($450) for each of their 240v models. The HTP in dual voltage is $50 more.

But not sure how useful a 120v cooler would be (assuming the welder would also only have 120v for the welding) since the welding amperages in 120v mode would be low enough that an air-cooled 9 torch would probably be more than adequate for that work. If the welder does indeed have 240v available then probably most practical to just get a 240v cooler, IMO.

[TraditionalToolworks]

Well, not more dangerous than your household freezer. I mean they use r234a which is eco-friendly and if you do not bash the unit to break the refrigerant lines there will be no leakage.

Now that you mention it, I think they use r234a in cars now as well, but to be honest I ripped the AC off my Porsche and I do have AC in my Tacoma, but haven't had it refilled. This all reminds me of a time when I was young, had an old refrigerator in a guest house I rented, I had to break the ice out of the freezer about once a month...Yep, I was using a hammer and screwdriver as I didn't have an ice pick and I nailed the line through the ice, coolant sprayed everywhere and the old ice box was toast. At least the landlord bought a newer one.

In cars the AC radiator will puncture in case of accident or because of small stones on the road. On my smart it happened to me once because the front grille has a honeycomb pattern large enough to let small stones pass through and hot the AC radiator.

Seems the r234a needs different lines, so if one converts over I can't remember specific but the lines may need changing. That might be a precaution, I'm no refrigerant guru.

I've seen people making coolers with pretty basic parts, are you planning to make your own?