[taiwanluthiers]

PXL_20231216_012647615.jpg (2.31 MiB) Viewed 16427 times

I've been trying to weld stainless, and trying to get it so I don't end up with oxidization, but it's impossible.

I'm not using Furrick anything, can't afford anything that fancy, so I'm using standard gas lens and ceramic gas lens cups, #6 because I don't have a big gas bottle (need to carry this up flights of stairs and a larger bottle is too heavy), so I need to save gas. I also turned the pressure for the gas bottle down (manufacturer for my welder recommends 15psi, the regulator for mine is set to at least 4x that, which wastes gas) so I can have a fairly long pre and post flow without worry. This has kept the tungsten fairly clean and silvery without oxidization, unless I dip it by mistake.

I can at least get the clear bead in the middle if I just do it with no filler and move fairly fast as well as short trigger time, stop, cool, then restart.

But once I get filler material added in, by the time I got a puddle the steel is glowing RED HOT for like 15 or more seconds (I can't set my post flow that long), and then the weld looks like the bottom center.

At first I've traced it down to using crap filler rod, I had ordered a bunch of ER201 and they turned black as soon as I add them to any weld puddle. I got some 308L and that fixed a lot of problem. I tried to look up what ER201 is and drew up a blank. Google has like 1 page of result for it, and all of it is Aliexpress links. I need to get some 304 or 308L rods.

But even with that, I'm not able to get any weld puddle and have time to add filler without the metal getting HOT and therefore completely lose all hope in terms of oxidization.

I'm doing a lot of practice welds in random directions, because stainless is expensive in Taiwan and so I gotta maximize my use of each weld coupon.

I set the current at about 90 amps, because if I set it lower, say at 60 amps, it takes longer to form a puddle, and by the time a puddle forms, regardless of current setting, the entire steel is already looking like it just came right out of a steel mill. Maybe I need a purge chamber?

So lowering current doesn't help because it takes longer to form puddle, higher current doesn't help because while it forms a puddle faster, it's not enough time for me to get a puddle in , move, then dip again, and by the time I dipped 3 or 4 times the entire metal is already looking like it came from a steel mill.

What can I do to help, besides buying giant gas lenses and using gas like it's going out of style? I only have a 40cf tank because that's the biggest tank I can carry up 5 flights of stairs.

[tweake]

the main thing with stainless is travel speed vers amps. 90 amps is ok. you need to move a big quicker and don't step over so much. your going full puddle width over, try at least to keep it half a puddle width. ie move lots of short little steps.
swap out the coupons after each bit and let them cool. (you can cool stainless in water, just dry them off before use).

other issues, first thing is stainless loves argon. you don't need a 12 cup for that, an 8 will work ok for thin material. i use a 10 most of the time. a gas lens helps but not critical, plenty gets welded with standard cups. i don't think gas is the problem here.

filler depends on material.
what material are you welding?
most common is 304 and 316. both can be welded with 316 filler.
stainless is also commonly welded without filler, so nothing wrong with practicing without filler.

201 stainless is a cheap stainless thats barely stainless. commonly used for exhausts. 308 filler if i remember correctly. 316 filler might work as well.

and yes stainless is expensive.

[taiwanluthiers]

I tried going to scrap yards to find stuff to make coupons out of but a few scrap yard I saw do not sell, only buy. Maybe it's liability because they don't want you digging through their scrap pile while people are operating heavy equipment.

[Coldman]

Use a bigger cup. The bigger the better, at least #10. Keep the post flow close to the end of the bead.

[taiwanluthiers]

So is bigger cup and lots of gas flow really the only way to weld stainless? I keep seeing videos from Pacific arc tig weld channel and everything they do is shiny, yellow at best but the best I can do is dark blue with some yellow right under the cup, and this is ideal condition too.

And he's using a MASSIVE cup with MASSIVE gas flow. I do not have a big gas bottle to be using up gas like that.

Is that really what it takes?

Would it be acceptable if the weld must look silver no matter what, to simply use electropolishing attachment with the TIG welder to clean it up? I look at the demonstrations that Andeli does with their machine and their's don't look any better, and they are using standard cups, not even gas lenses. Only good looking weld they got is using the TIG spot function.

The only way I got welds that are anywhere remotely gold or blue is tacking... And that's if I limit the tack to less than a second. A millisecond more and it turns deep blue. Pacific Arc Tig Weld tack looks silvery and has no hint of heat affected zone around it at all.

[taiwanluthiers]

PXL_20231225_102944638.MP.jpg (4.57 MiB) Viewed 15718 times

This is the best I can do so far. I got very limited number of coupons so I'm making the best out of ones I got.

PXL_20231225_112448335.jpg (2.05 MiB) Viewed 15718 times

This is my torch setup. Chinese but it's all I got. Best gas flow I got is about 5 liters per minute, any more than this I'm wasting gas, and any less I get black oxides. Please ignore the balled up tungsten. I used it for aluminum welding practice after I did this, the tungsten looks pristine the whole time I was doing stainless.

I've done subsequent practices but my best result is pulsing and just laying the wire in the path of the torch. Otherwise I just seem to burn everything. The one black bead is because I turned the gas down to 3 liters per minute and it really didn't like it.

PXL_20231225_135255466.MP.jpg (6.52 MiB) Viewed 15718 times

PXL_20231225_135303519.jpg (2.41 MiB) Viewed 15718 times

[tweake]

So is bigger cup and lots of gas flow really the only way to weld stainless? I keep seeing videos from Pacific arc tig weld channel and everything they do is shiny, yellow at best but the best I can do is dark blue with some yellow right under the cup, and this is ideal condition too.

And he's using a MASSIVE cup with MASSIVE gas flow. I do not have a big gas bottle to be using up gas like that.

Is that really what it takes?

Would it be acceptable if the weld must look silver no matter what, to simply use electropolishing attachment with the TIG welder to clean it up? I look at the demonstrations that Andeli does with their machine and their's don't look any better, and they are using standard cups, not even gas lenses. Only good looking weld they got is using the TIG spot function.

The only way I got welds that are anywhere remotely gold or blue is tacking... And that's if I limit the tack to less than a second. A millisecond more and it turns deep blue. Pacific Arc Tig Weld tack looks silvery and has no hint of heat affected zone around it at all.

most are never silver unless its aerospace etc. a lot of the guys that do certain colors are often doing it for looks. in industry all those pretty colors get cleaned off anyway.
color is not generated by the arc, its made by the hot metal being exposed to air. big cups means the weld is still under coverage after the weld as you move along. you will see this when the gas turns off, the color instantly appears. its why post flow is important. you want the metal to cool down a bit before the gas shuts off.
it depends on how much you heat the metal and small bits of metal heat up really quickly. make sure you cool down your bits of scrap first.

its a balance between amperage to get enough penetration and travel speed. travel speed is a big factor in how hot the metal gets.

that first pic looks pretty good.
don't worry to much about colors, as long as its not getting totally cooked its ok. penetration is more important. i've had pro's here who can do wonderful color welds but tell them to do full penetration and it goes to crap.

[tweake]

https://youtu.be/z86cWH6ZFTA?si=hdpUZSemcXpm0RWb

check that vid out. he also has another one on travel speed with stainless.

[taiwanluthiers]

So is bigger cup and lots of gas flow really the only way to weld stainless? I keep seeing videos from Pacific arc tig weld channel and everything they do is shiny, yellow at best but the best I can do is dark blue with some yellow right under the cup, and this is ideal condition too.

And he's using a MASSIVE cup with MASSIVE gas flow. I do not have a big gas bottle to be using up gas like that.

Is that really what it takes?

Would it be acceptable if the weld must look silver no matter what, to simply use electropolishing attachment with the TIG welder to clean it up? I look at the demonstrations that Andeli does with their machine and their's don't look any better, and they are using standard cups, not even gas lenses. Only good looking weld they got is using the TIG spot function.

The only way I got welds that are anywhere remotely gold or blue is tacking... And that's if I limit the tack to less than a second. A millisecond more and it turns deep blue. Pacific Arc Tig Weld tack looks silvery and has no hint of heat affected zone around it at all.

most are never silver unless its aerospace etc. a lot of the guys that do certain colors are often doing it for looks. in industry all those pretty colors get cleaned off anyway.
color is not generated by the arc, its made by the hot metal being exposed to air. big cups means the weld is still under coverage after the weld as you move along. you will see this when the gas turns off, the color instantly appears. its why post flow is important. you want the metal to cool down a bit before the gas shuts off.
it depends on how much you heat the metal and small bits of metal heat up really quickly. make sure you cool down your bits of scrap first.

its a balance between amperage to get enough penetration and travel speed. travel speed is a big factor in how hot the metal gets.

that first pic looks pretty good.
don't worry to much about colors, as long as its not getting totally cooked its ok. penetration is more important. i've had pro's here who can do wonderful color welds but tell them to do full penetration and it goes to crap.

That's the thing, of course I care more about penetration but when I do get penetration, it cooks no matter how much gas I use or how big a cup I use. I actually want to use a #4 gas lens because I can dial the gas down to nearly nothing (like 3 liters per minute or less) and still get acceptable welds (as in not black). I got a small bottle and so I don't want to go refilling them every week just to practice.

I guess I'll just go for electropolishing if a silvery weld is absolutely required.

What about titanium? I heard titanium absolutely cannot tolerate colors AT ALL, which is why they're often done in purge chambers or very large gas lenses.

Only time I've seen silvery weld is either pulsing without any filler wire or "cold weld" where it's just TIG spot, where the arc is only active for about 15 milliseconds. Both time you get ZERO penetration. When I tried introducing filler wire into pulsed TIG I still get colors, just deep blue and not silver.

I set my post flow to 4 seconds. Used to be 5 but I found 4 works and I like to not waste gas. It's mostly to keep the tungsten clean. Andeli recommends 2.5 seconds.

[tweake]

That's the thing, of course I care more about penetration but when I do get penetration, it cooks no matter how much gas I use or how big a cup I use. I actually want to use a #4 gas lens because I can dial the gas down to nearly nothing (like 3 liters per minute or less) and still get acceptable welds (as in not black). I got a small bottle and so I don't want to go refilling them every week just to practice.

I guess I'll just go for electropolishing if a silvery weld is absolutely required.

What about titanium? I heard titanium absolutely cannot tolerate colors AT ALL, which is why they're often done in purge chambers or very large gas lenses.

Only time I've seen silvery weld is either pulsing without any filler wire or "cold weld" where it's just TIG spot, where the arc is only active for about 15 milliseconds. Both time you get ZERO penetration. When I tried introducing filler wire into pulsed TIG I still get colors, just deep blue and not silver.

I set my post flow to 4 seconds. Used to be 5 but I found 4 works and I like to not waste gas. It's mostly to keep the tungsten clean. Andeli recommends 2.5 seconds.

two big problems with using small cups is anything outside the coverage area will tint badly because the haz area is still very hot. also the weld will be worse because your moving the gas off it as you travel. for eg titanium often uses a trailing shield so the weld you have already done stays covered as you travel along. same principle with stainless. your moving forward taking the gas away from the weld and it will tint as soon as it hits the air.
also you have the issue of keeping the filler rod covered. if you pull out of the gas flow it sugars and then you dip that back into the weld pool, not good.
so small cups not recommended.

sorry but use the gas. get bigger/more bottles if you have to. once you start back purging as well you really start going through the gas.
post flow i typically use about 10 seconds. its not just about keeping the weld covered but also keeping the tungsten covered.

electropolishing machines are expensive (no idea why). so most diy or small workshops use pickling/passivation acids.

[taiwanluthiers]

I mean those brush with the solution that you apply a current to. I have no idea what it's called but it cleans up oxidation. It's not expensive at all and people have rigged a Tig torch to do it. I got no idea what's in the solution but they sell a powder that you mix with water to make the solution.

All I need is the brush and a means to rig that brush to the torch.

[tweake]

I mean those brush with the solution that you apply a current to. I have no idea what it's called but it cleans up oxidation. It's not expensive at all and people have rigged a Tig torch to do it. I got no idea what's in the solution but they sell a powder that you mix with water to make the solution.

All I need is the brush and a means to rig that brush to the torch.

thats electropolishing.
normally there is a proper power supply.
using a tig torch is interesting, i have not seen that before. usually the home made ones use bench power supplies so you can get higher voltages than what tig provides. there is a few write ups around on that.
the acid is usually something like citric acid, which is available in powder form.

[rjd1234]

https://youtu.be/z86cWH6ZFTA?si=hdpUZSemcXpm0RWb

check that vid out. he also has another one on travel speed with stainless.

This was really helpful, thank you for sharing.

[taiwanluthiers]

Question, I tried what the video suggested, closer arc length, higher amperage and faster travel speed, but I've never found a combination that works. If I set the amps too low it takes me a long time to get a puddle and the metal cooks, but even at higher amperage it takes less time to form a puddle, but the metal still cooks anytime I introduce filler rod into the equation. Is it because the rod is too big? I'm using 2mm rods which isn't exactly big. I even seen a video where someone always use 3mm rods no matter what.

I done test puddles where I get one dab, and the whole thing takes 2 second, and regardless of how little time I'm taking I get deep blue oxide at best. Under no circumstances am I getting gold or no color, unless I set the amperage very high and move extremely fast (can only fusion, no rods), but this gets me absolutely no penetration at all.

[cj737]

It’s STILL a matter of gas coverage and cup size. You seem unwilling to use the recommended sizes and flow, so oxidation/overheating will occur no matter how fast you travel, what size filler, and how amps you use.

Until you change those variables, nothing will improve.

[taiwanluthiers]

It’s STILL a matter of gas coverage and cup size. You seem unwilling to use the recommended sizes and flow, so oxidation/overheating will occur no matter how fast you travel, what size filler, and how amps you use.

Until you change those variables, nothing will improve.

So what size cup should I use then? I used the largest cup I have in the set, which I believe is a #10 glass cup (the one I showed in the picture), and it's not giving me the best result.

Past this size I'm not going to be able to do it at all because I'm not using a #22 cup and running it at 30 CFH. Argon isn't cheap, and also since I live on the 5th floor without any elevator, carrying a 100 pound bottle up here isn't in the cards for me at this time. In my country I've seen people carrying LPG cylinders weighting that much, but then again those guys are STRONG because they've done it all their life.

I'm just thinking if color isn't affecting the structure of the weld, then electropolishing brush that I fit on the TIG welder is cheaper than using too much gas. Because even the 100lb tank won't last long if I'm having to run at 30CFH constantly.

At least on the upside the gas supplier will deliver to me, but it will be up to me to carry the bottle up the stairs, then bring it back down when he shows up. I used a small bottle for a reason, otherwise I would have gotten a 125 CF bottle already.

[tweake]

Question, I tried what the video suggested, closer arc length, higher amperage and faster travel speed, but I've never found a combination that works. If I set the amps too low it takes me a long time to get a puddle and the metal cooks, but even at higher amperage it takes less time to form a puddle, but the metal still cooks anytime I introduce filler rod into the equation. Is it because the rod is too big? I'm using 2mm rods which isn't exactly big. I even seen a video where someone always use 3mm rods no matter what.

I done test puddles where I get one dab, and the whole thing takes 2 second, and regardless of how little time I'm taking I get deep blue oxide at best. Under no circumstances am I getting gold or no color, unless I set the amperage very high and move extremely fast (can only fusion, no rods), but this gets me absolutely no penetration at all.

is the rod tip black? if so your pulling the tip out of the argon. need to keep the rod end covered so it stays clean. this can be a problem if your arc length is to long or to shallow torch angle and your trying to hold the filler away from the arc enough to stop it balling. this can be compounded by not using enough gas.

rod size is fine for practicing.

practice without filler. a LOT of stainless welding is done without filler anyway. get your welds good without filler. then practice on butt joints.
once thats good then start with filler. i use 316 filler simply because it works with the two most common materials, 304 and 316.

[taiwanluthiers]

Yea, I was REALLY tempted to do this without filler. I mean I feel like unless I'm welding anything more than 3mm thick, adding filler only makes the weld piss poor, as a few examples have shown... I just did some practice and in theory I could get good welds without filler just by turning the amp WAY up (like almost 50% more than recommended) and then use pulsing either by hand or automatically at the welder. Weld looks REAL good this way with minimal heat.

But as soon as I introduce filler rod, all hell breaks loose.

This isn't about cup size, this is about heat input, and I can't introduce filler rod without putting TOO MUCH HEAT into the steel. Maybe if I just laywire I might do better, or use smaller wire, but all that stuff about filler wire cooling stuff, that's hogwash. All filler wire did is make me stay in one spot for too long and then burn the steel, unless I'm welding something THICK (and by this I mean 3mm or thicker).

Aluminum welding just seems so much easier, at least for big blocks of scrap my friend provides for free (I just return the scrap to him once I'm done practicing, he just sells it anyways and scrappers don't care if they are full of weld beads). Not tried coke cans though, or 3mm thick pieces.

PXL_20231229_143909790.jpg (1.36 MiB) Viewed 15516 times

Where you see the shinier welds is where I did it without filler wire. It really felt like it was easier for me to execute a better weld by simply pulsing and moving quickly through it.

I didn't know most SS welds are done without filler wire, youtube tells me otherwise, everyone always use filler wire.

[tweake]

........I just did some practice and in theory I could get good welds without filler just by turning the amp WAY up (like almost 50% more than recommended) and then use pulsing either by hand or automatically at the welder. Weld looks REAL good this way with minimal heat.

All filler wire did is make me stay in one spot for too long and then burn the steel, unless I'm welding something THICK (and by this I mean 3mm or thicker).

Where you see the shinier welds is where I did it without filler wire. It really felt like it was easier for me to execute a better weld by simply pulsing and moving quickly through it.

I didn't know most SS welds are done without filler wire, youtube tells me otherwise, everyone always use filler wire.

i think you need to just do welds without filler. just do simple lines along the material. ignore what the machine says (they are often wrong), turn pulse off. set it so it makes a puddle in a few seconds without burning through, then move along.
just get some consistent lines going.
post a pic when your done.

worry about filler another day.

teaching yourself is difficult and it takes a long time. jody has lots of video's which can help (as do others) but try not to do to much to soon. keep it simple. one little step at a time.
i've been there so i know exactly whats its like.

[cj737]

All of the examples in your latest picture show issues.

Maybe this video will help https://youtu.be/PE59reAtJRs?si=dn20UqUdyX0_zc60

[taiwanluthiers]

Pacific arc Tig weld video is unhelpful and he really ignores a bunch of issue. In fact I think he's just out to sell some big ass Tig cups.

I've even experimented with keeping a tight arc, stuck a few times, I'm still having issues, and all hell breaks loose whenever filler gets involved. The only time I'm going to get anything passable is if I weld thicker plates, more than 3mm. Then it's just much harder to overheat them.

Going to try just running a line without filler then.

This one supplier I'm using lists his stainless fillers in a very misleading way. I keep ordering 201 fillers by accident because they're listed on the very top. 201 is junk, weld bead is always black no matter what. It's so bad that you're literally better off using carbon steel fillers.

I had to reorder 304 fillers because of this oversight.

[cj737]

I find it odd that you, as a new welder have such determination to ignore sound advice, and would speak so poorly of someone (Pacific Arc Tig) who has been welding for 20 years in a production environment. He clearly shows smaller cups in that video, but you seem to know everything yet can’t produce a reasonable result. Despite all the counsel to the contrary, you insist upon doing it your way all in the name of saving some gas.

You should abandon stainless and stick to ally or mild steel. Stainless is obviously beyond your temperament and skills. Best of luck-

[tweake]

This one supplier I'm using lists his stainless fillers in a very misleading way. I keep ordering 201 fillers by accident because they're listed on the very top. 201 is junk, weld bead is always black no matter what. It's so bad that you're literally better off using carbon steel fillers.

this is why i say don't use fillers to start with. get your beads running good first, get your practice in.
keep it simple, step by step. its going to take time.

[taiwanluthiers]

I gotta fix the weld mask first. It won't darken (except a brief dark flash in the first split second when I strike the arc) unless I weld in excess of 100 amps for TIG. Something is obviously broken and I ordered new lenses. I keep seeing spots because the lens won't darken.

Challenge is heat input I found, and then arc length and all that, but I gotta see the arc in order to do that and I'm not going to start off welding at 100+ amps.

The problem is the lens will darken if I shine it into a bright light, but it won't darken with TIG arc for some odd reason.

[tweake]

I gotta fix the weld mask first. It won't darken (except a brief dark flash in the first split second when I strike the arc) unless I weld in excess of 100 amps for TIG. Something is obviously broken and I ordered new lenses. I keep seeing spots because the lens won't darken.

The problem is the lens will darken if I shine it into a bright light, but it won't darken with TIG arc for some odd reason.

adjust the sensitivity. if no sensitivity adjustment get a better helmet.
also another trick can be to shine a bright light on your work. eg rig up a work lamp.