[sschefer]

well, u know better , but it seems somehow weird to me, u are using around 9kwh that is way too much for a 200Amp tig welder, about double.
please post info about the helium mix, Im ashemed to say , but i've never used it.

A/C is a little different than DCEN. Lincoln shows the input current for only 1 phase of the typical 220v 2 phase circuit. Typically this is done because folks often look at the breaker and refer to it as a 50amp circuit when in fact it's two 50 amp circuits.

The 225 is a square wave TIG but is still a transfomer and not an inverter. If you set the machine in A/C mode to be 50% clean and 50% penetration then the output amps on the digital readout is correct. If you set the machine up to be 25/75 then that is a 50% difference in phase duration. The current builds for 50% longer and has a 50% shorter cooling period. The result is that even though you're not using any more current, you are creating and effectively storing more heat. Heat is what causes the breaker to trip. The welder can put out 250amps max in A/C mode.

In theory changing to a 50amp breaker would work but it would also void my Home Owners policy if it caused a fire.

I had to get the 50/50 out of another warehouse so I won't get it until Monday or Tuesday. I let you all know how things changed later next week.

Thanks again..

[anthonyfawley]

For that machine (Lincoln Preciion TIG 225 is what you have I assume?) the 40 amp breaker is to small. Breaker size should be a 50 amp minimum/ 70 amp maximum with #6 wire feeding the outlet from the panel. Breaker should be a inverse time or thermal/magnetic with a delay in tripping.(Super lag). How far is the outlet from the breaker panel, that will matter as well, too far and you will need to increase wire size for voltage drop. Basically you will need to replace the breaker with a 50-70 amp breaker and possibly the wire as well as a 40 AMP breaker only requires a #8 conductor. The #8 ground wire should be ok but the 2 hots should be changed to a #6. Some counties dont require a ground if the conduit to the outlet from the panel is metal but on a welder it is always recommended to run a ground wire to ensure the machine has a good ground. This will not be costly. Breakers range from 10 to around 50 bucks and the wire shouldnt be too bad either. As far as voiding your home owners policy I doubt that as long as you do it to code. As of right now you are voiding it by knowingly overloading the ampacity of the circuit. Increasing a circuit size by code will not void anything. Just because you have a 2 pole 40 amp breaker does not mean you have used 80 amps of your 100 amp service. there other variables that are taken into consideration. now i do not know what else you are using in that panel. Consult a local electrician and I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

Good Luck
Anthony

[jpence38]

Steve,
Lincoln posts on their data sheet the input current of 39 amps @ the rated output of a 100% duty cycle which is only 90 amps. If you are maxing the machine out at 200 amps, you are going to probably need around 75 amps off the panel. This is assuming an ac balance of 50/50.

[sschefer]

Steve,
Lincoln posts on their data sheet the input current of 39 amps @ the rated output of a 100% duty cycle which is only 90 amps. If you are maxing the machine out at 200 amps, you are going to probably need around 75 amps off the panel. This is assuming an ac balance of 50/50.

Fianlly, someone that understands A/C balance in split phase Mains power distribution systems. You won't believe the arguments I've been in over that.. I've got good balance at the subpanel. Nothing on that panel uses a neutral. I now have a second mini sub panel off the house main that's got the 120v circuits handled.

I sold the Lincoln and I'm ordering a Everlast 250EX. They spec max in-rush (100% current output) at 49amps. Jody's Helium/Argon video gave me the info I needed regarding welding energy differences (THANKS AGAIN JODY!!!) so I should be good to go.

You wouldn't happen to know the wire gauge they use on the power cord for the EX would you?

[Rugar]

You wouldn't happen to know the wire gauge they use on the power cord for the EX would you?

If I remember right it was 10 gauge.

[sschefer]

You wouldn't happen to know the wire gauge they use on the power cord for the EX would you?

If I remember right it was 10 gauge.

That sounds right to me. I had a heck of a time trying to make the folks on the Everlast forum understand 240v Split phase. I finally gave up.

[sschefer]

Just called Everlast, the 250EX power cord is 10ga stranded. It will run on a properly configured 30amp double pole breaker at a dedictated 240V subpanel. That means no neutrals on the sub panel but the panel box should be grounded to earth.

The Lincoln is a hog with a 8ga power cable and it needs a 50amp double pole breaker at the sub panel and at least a 75 amp breaker at the main. You'd run 6ga minimum from the main to the sub. I was running a 40 on the sub and a 50 at the main and I was blowing the 40. My main panel is balanced during the daytime but at night when lights go on it gets out of balance.

More conversations with Everlast indicate that the welder needs a 50amp breaker. I can't figure it out. They say it's setup for 3 phase but will run on single split phase. No more arugment from me. I'll start with a 30amp double pole and see where it goes from there.

[sschefer]

Just realized I'd promised an update:

1. Sold the Lincoln and got an Everlast 250EX.
2. Got a tank of UPH (Ultra Pure Helium (99.999%).
3. Got a Y connector but couldn't find B size check valves.
4. Got frustrated and bought a Smith Mixer.
5. Had to replace my gauges with new ones for mixing gas. The mixer needs gas at 105-115 psi to mix correctly.
6. Made up new hoses using 1/4 poly air compressor hose and kept them as short as possible.
7. Hooked it all up and purged the lines for at least a minute.
8. Started with 50/50 mix and had some minor problems lighting off the torch.
9. Tried 100% Helium and could not light off the torch.
10. Tried 80 Ar/20 He and everything was great.

Synopsis:

The mixer is the way to go if you want to play with different mixes. Personnally I think I would have been just as well off buying a bottle of 80/20. It would have saved me a couple of grand.

80/20 was adequate to go from 125a to 90a welding 1/8" 6061 with 3/32 tung and 5056 filler rod.
50/50 with 160a welded 1/4" using a 1/8" tung and 1/8" rod. I started with a 3/32 tung and the arc spread out too much and caused a wide flat weld. It still had reasonably good penetration but it looked too hot and frosty. A mix of 80/20 with 1/8" rod and 1/8" tung at 175a (max) gave the best results.

Welder - The Everlast 250EX is adequate to get the work I have in front of me done. I've run it maxed out with a 30a breaker on a balanced subpanel. The power problem is solved.

I upgraded the foot pedal to one I had made by SSC controls. It resembles the Lincoln low profile style and works far better than the one that come with the welder. I also added a CK 200 torch with a gas valve to cut back on gas loss. Overall I'd rate it A+ when comparing value to cost. After trying out a Miller Dynasty 350 and 700 I would choose the 350 over the 250EX. However, with my power situation the 250EX is the best choice unitl next spring when I have the power company put a separate 200amp service in my shop.

[Sarge]

I am not an electrician either, however I have been in your boat so to speak...lol. If you can go three phase that will help. I think your lead wires are too small. #4 would be what I would recommend and I think you are gonna have to go to a bigger breaker. Just had this issue 6 months ago. My 175 SQ wave will even pop a 50 single phase running wide open. The shorter you can make your lead with heavier wire will help. Trying to find the link that I used to determine the wire size vs. length vs. amp usage. I will post when I find it again.

[Sarge]

Here is the link I promised. Have fun!

[Sarge]

I guess I will actually post it this time.... http://www.southwire.com/ProductCatalog/voltdrop.jsp

[sschefer]

Electrically, I'm golden now. This spring I'm having another 200amps brought in from the pole so I don't have to rob from the house. Theres no third wire on the pole so three phase is out and they've only got one transformer on the pole so 460 is also not an option. I'm stuck with 240 split phase but that's o.k. because the 200amps that I get will be clear of any other circuits and it will be plenty.

[Otto Nobedder]

I think you've taken the right path. Simply put, electricity is MUCH cheaper than Helium. I often weld Al to 1/4 inch with 100% argon at work, but I have the benefit of "unlimited" electricity (460/3phase). At the current price of helium, it's cheaper to upgrade your panel.

Steve

[Wobulate]

Steve,

Please excuse me if I follow your upgrade path.
It seems you just performed a complete circle with your equipment, pending a 200A upgrade to your shop in the very near future.
You spent a lot of cash to get to a temporary equipment state that could have supported your original Lincoln welder without any problem.
In fact, with that much power available, you could have purchased a used Synchrowave 250 or 351.

You did learn a lot in the process, and thanks for detailing everything you did.

Good luck with your new setup.
Wob

[sschefer]

Wob, I may never do the 200a upgrade. I don't need to unless I actually go and get the Dynasty 350 which I'm finding now that I probably don't need. My Everlast 250EX and a 80/20 mix seems to be just fine on 3/8" Al. I was learning and overthinking all along the way. Now that I've got some time under my belt things are different than I thought they would be. Stuff happens.

FYI, I run my 250EX maxed out on a 30amp breaker and haven't even warmed it. A lot of guy's say it can't be done but I'm doing it.

Oh, about spending a lot of cash, I'm 58 and have been working my ass off all my life.. I scrimped and saved and scrimped and saved and for what, a nice casket???? Who gives a crap about saving money now, I'm gonna have fun before I die. Did I mention I had a minor heart attack last Saturday.. yeah, makes you think hard about crap like this.. LOL....

I think I'll take a break from boat building this weekend and go play with my latest frivolous expenditure... It's a little dirty cuz I ran through my ass-hole neighbors yard this morning on the way to work... Just kidding. Ewwww that sure would feel good though...

[Otto Nobedder]

Steve,

I have a tip (from experience; I use it daily at work) for conserving that expensive helium.

Lose the 1/4" compressed air line. A helium atom is the smallest thing in nature outside of a laboratory or the core of a star, smaller than a hydrogen molecule, and will leak out of damn near anything at an alarming rate.

Use DOT rated 1/4" air brake tubing (nylon) and appropriate compression fittings with inserts. Ask a local tractor/trailer shop or supplier. You will lose far less helium through "diffusion". Use a soap-and-water solution (or "SNOOP"(tm) if you can get it.) to trace all your lines and eliminate any leaks. And, obviously, set the helium percentage to the minimum to satisfy your needs.

Nice ride, BTW. Did you get the heated seats with that? They are awesome in northern winters!



Steve

[sschefer]

Otto, I went through the whole hose ordeal. I ended up with just what you recommend. The 1/4 air compressor hose not only leaks it also contaminates and pretty much sux's in general. I pump 120 psi to the mixer to make it work properly. When I'm done for the day, I back off the pressure gauges at the tank and then turn the tanks off. They hold on the high side just fine but I usualy forget to turn the flowmeter and the torch valve off so I lose what's in the hose. I've been fairly impressed by the lack of gas consumption. It's actually pretty close to 80/20 on the tanks. I'm down a little over 1/3 (250 tanks) on the argon after about 200' of weld on 1/4" at 18cfh.

The truck is the Lariat package aka XLT. It has all the bells and whistles (seat heaters, etc.) but not the full Kings Ranch package. Ford is pretty good about putting everything you need in the truck to add whatever you want later. Things like the alarm system, keyless remote and remote start were all installed I just needed to pay for the key fob and have it activated with a simple reprogramming of the ECU. Chevy/GMC seems to leave the stuff out completely and make you pay for the full option if you want it installed later.

[Wobulate]

Steve,

Sorry for sounding abrupt, but I was hoping you kept the Lincoln (then we could share techniques) and added an inverter to your collection. It is always cool to have a vast selection of cool tools to play with. I agree with you about life timing and spending money, I am around the same age and often thinking 'should I..... or shouldn't I', that lasts for about 20 seconds then I make a bee line for the computer to place my orders.

I know one thing, if it's fun then it always cost more than you think, here is my example. Purchased the Lincoln Precision TIG 225 for 2060.00, no tax or shipping from Indiana Oxygen Company. As you know, the welder comes with a great set of accessories, and you think that is all you will need to spend. Then you realize, and start thinking seriously about all the other stuff you need to begin this new welding adventure the right way. So, my good deal at 2060.00 became 3200.00 instantly. Then, while I was learning to sharpen tungsten's using my Belt Grinder, I discovered that the expensive belts I purchased (Zirconia or Borazon from Norton), one lasted about 4 hours, but got the job done. As I read more, and became more aware of the details of this highly technical welding type I realized I would need to grind with diamond get a better more accurate taper. So I purchased a Sharpie from Arc-Zone (another 450 with extra grinding wheels). So, I am around 3700.00 now, and after spending all this money I can see one very important thing, my AL weld beads are getting better and better.

I was sorry to here about your medical event , I hope you are feeling better. And you are right when a traumatic event happens in your life you do start thinking about doing things you want to do in the time you have. As the Kansas song says " and all your money not another minute buys".

Now stop reading this forum and go out and play with the new metal melter. Try welding a razor blade to a coke can to a banana.

Wob

[Otto Nobedder]

Hey, Steve Schefer,

I decided to use your full name, because there are several Steves here, and I'm also a "Steve S."

Good for you! It's hard to make any system helium-tight. If your high-side gauge is holding overnight, your system has very low losses for helium.

Steve S.

[sschefer]

Hey, Steve Schefer,

I decided to use your full name, because there are several Steves here, and I'm also a "Steve S."

Good for you! It's hard to make any system helium-tight. If your high-side gauge is holding overnight, your system has very low losses for helium.

Steve S.

LOL, I just remembered how mad I was when the brand new Smith $250.00 high pressure guage set was leaking on the Helium side. After messing with it for a while I got it to seal pretty well and later realized I was darn lucky to get it to seal at all.

I'm sure you know this trick but for others who don't -- Always open your tank valves all the way to the stop. The stop is a seal also and anything in between is not sealed and will leak at the valve stem. You can lose a lot of gas through the course of a day and not be able to see or hear the leak.

[Wobulate]

Steve,

Opening the gas valve all the way is something I learned in high school, and was reminded over the years by my local welding supply (Arc-Gas) when I visit them for more gas. I did not remember about the seal that functions when the tank valve is opened all the way, thanks for resetting my memory regarding that fact. By the way that is nice truck, should I post a picture of my 2010 Toyota FJ Cruiser TTS ?

Wob

2010_FJ_Cruiser_TTS_Cp.jpg (32.52 KiB) Viewed 1642 times

[Otto Nobedder]

Quite true. Any high-pressure bottle has a built-in positive seal that works when the valve is fully opened.

Acetylene is the exception. It is a low pressure gas, dissolved in acetone, and the valve should only be open 1/4 to 1/2 turn. This allows you to stop the flow of fuel with one wrist movement in an emergency.

IMPORTANT!
FOR THOSE WHO DON'T KNOW:
If you ever have to lay your acetylene bottle on it's side, let it stand upright several hours before you crack that valve! You could contaminate your regulator with acetone, destroy seals in it, and over-pressure your lines. Acetylene gas above 15 PSI can spontaneously break down and combust in the lines without oxygen present.

Steve

[sschefer]

IMPORTANT!
FOR THOSE WHO DON'T KNOW:
If you ever have to lay your acetylene bottle on it's side, let it stand upright several hours before you crack that valve! You could contaminate your regulator with acetone, destroy seals in it, and over-pressure your lines. Acetylene gas above 15 PSI can spontaneously break down and combust in the lines without oxygen present.

Good post. I was taught that 40 years ago and never had to learn it the hard way.

Thanks

[Sarge]

Great safety tip!!! I am so glad that safety is a prominent concern on this site. You guys are great!

[jpence38]

We would all probably go into shock if a survey was done and an actual number produced of the percentage of people out there working with high pressure and flammable gasses that are totally clueless to things such as that. Or to the proper procedure of how to start-up and then shut-down cutting torches.