[sschefer]

I have a problem with my big fat Lincoln being a power hog. I need to find a way to reduce the amps required to weld thicker aluminum like 1/4 or 3/8.

I'm currently running at 190-200 on 1/4 AL plate butt joints and blowing a 220v 40 amp breaker. I could change that to a 220v 50a but I need lights to be on a separate circuit and I only have 100 amp sub panel.

Does anyone know approximately what I'd be needing for current (on the machine not at the panel) on a 50/50 mix? 150 would be a nice number if I could get there. I don't want to go buy a 300cf tank (smallest that AirGas has in my area) and find out it won't do the trick.

Thanks in advance for the help.

Steve

[jpence38]

I don't know what type of joint prep you are doing, but that and a little preheat (about 200 deg.) can do wonders.

[sschefer]

Thanks Jim,

A little more info for you:

I'm doing some bench practice right now. I've got a ton of 1/4" corner welds and a few 1/4 to 3/8 butt welds to do on this boat I'm building. I preped the practice crap with a good brushing, Aluma Prep another light brush then a small bevel on each piece and a wipe down with Acetone. That was last night, I didn't prep that well in prior attempts.

I did a preheat with a MAP gas torch but didn't check to see exactly how hot it was. That didn't really seem to be an issue. I was running about 75% penetration and could only get 3 one inch beads down before the 220 40a breaker blew. They were nice beads though.

If I could dedicate all 100amps on the panel to the welder I would but I have to reserve 10a for the lights and outlets.

If the H/A mix won't get me where I need to be then I'll have to by a Everlast 250EX. Oh Darn.... LOL

I'm not sure if your response is saying yes I can get there or no it won't and I need to prep better.

[kermdawg]

See if you can talk to an electrician. Maybe you need some heavier guage wire runnin to your welder. He should also be able to calculate all your amps and volts and stuff and maybe find a simple way to toss a 50 amp breaker in there, if thatll help.

[sschefer]

See if you can talk to an electrician. Maybe you need some heavier guage wire runnin to your welder. He should also be able to calculate all your amps and volts and stuff and maybe find a simple way to toss a 50 amp breaker in there, if thatll help.

Kermdawg, I only have a 100amps comming into this subpanel and its also got to run the freezer and lights in the garage. Can't let those fish thaw now can we...

The welder wants about 85 amps at 190 amps with 75% penetration on A/C. The longer wave creates a longer current demand so it builds heat quickly and the heat blows the breaker. I've tried auto balance and I have to bump up to 200amps so it doesn't help. I have to be very carefull to get full penetration and not trap air in the joint or I'll end up with root rot. Aluminum will do that to ya.

I run 8 gauge to the panel from the welder which is the same size as the welder power cable and it'll handle 50 amps per phase (total 100amps). The problem is that I can't put more than a 220v 40amp breaker (40amps per phase for a total of 80) in the panel or I'll blow the breaker in the main panel at the house. I only have a 200 amp service to the property and I'm stretching it taking 100amps away from the house.

Anyway, the only thing I can do is to try to reduce the current required to weld and it's a significant amount that I need to get back so that's why I'm wondering if 50/50 would get me back down around 150 amps on 1/4" AL.

I'm hoping someone has taken some notes and can tell me if I can get there or not. If I can then it makes sense to buy a 300cf bottle of 50/50. If it ends up splitting hairs then I'll have to dump the Lincoln and get an Everlast. Worse case scenario, (which isn't all the bad) is that I use my MIG welder with the spool gun for the whole project and back chip everything. There's also a lot of welds that will show so I'd have to do a lot of grinding to make it look decent.

[sschefer]

O.K. Command Decision time..

I'm leaving the Lincoln on CL for a week and I'm ordering up a 300cf bottle of 50/50. I'll test the Lincoln with it and if it gets close to my comfort zone, I'll keep it. If it sells I'll either go with a Dyansty or a Everlast but if not, I still buy a Everlast 250EX a little later down the road for the welding that will show. I'll use my MIG for those that don't. I'm going to back chip the butt welds TIG or MIG so that's moot point.

Thanks all for the ideas and thoughts.. They made me get out of panic mode and back into rational mode!

Steve

[dustelf]

i'm not an electrician, but i'm pretty sure u can change the fuse to a 50 amp one with no problems, the lights+fridge will never get that much amps. I guess u overthinked it, just install a 50A fuse and see where it gets u.(if u say the cable can handle it ...)

[sschefer]

i'm not an electrician, but i'm pretty sure u can change the fuse to a 50 amp one with no problems, the lights+fridge will never get that much amps. I guess u overthinked it, just install a 50A fuse and see where it gets u.(if u say the cable can handle it ...)

Thanks, I've got the shop wired to code and recently inspected. Belive me, I wish it was as simple as dropping in 50amp breaker. What will happen is that when the old deep freeze kicks in, it's going to pull about 15amps. I've got the freezer on the opposite phase from the lights because I have no idea when that freezer is gonna kick on.

What would happen is that it would blow the 50amp breakers at the main pannel in the house and leave me in the dark. It would be a total pain in the butt if I'm all wrapped up inside a boat trying to weld upside down and backwards.

Now, I could just throw the breaker to the deep freeze when I'm welding and then hope I remember to turn it back on when I'm done. I think you see where that's leading.

I just ordered up a bottle of 50/50 I can use it any way I end up going so it's not gonna be wasted money. Maybe extravagent, but not wasted.

Again, thanks for taking the time to respond!

[jpence38]

Steve,
You will definitely notice a difference in the characteristics of the arc and puddle when you use the 50/50. Even more so if you use 75 hel /25 arg. I would say no more than 50/50 depending on how unstable the arc becomes from the helium. I don't think you will make it to the 150 amp mark, but you might come to a point where you will not pop the breaker every inch or so of weld. Regardless, for the type of joint and thickness you are welding I would recommend a hel/arg mix anyway. Keep us posted on the results. Thanks

[dustelf]

well, u know better , but it seems somehow weird to me, u are using around 9kwh that is way too much for a 200Amp tig welder, about double.
please post info about the helium mix, Im ashemed to say , but i've never used it.

[sschefer]

well, u know better , but it seems somehow weird to me, u are using around 9kwh that is way too much for a 200Amp tig welder, about double.
please post info about the helium mix, Im ashemed to say , but i've never used it.

A/C is a little different than DCEN. Lincoln shows the input current for only 1 phase of the typical 220v 2 phase circuit. Typically this is done because folks often look at the breaker and refer to it as a 50amp circuit when in fact it's two 50 amp circuits.

The 225 is a square wave TIG but is still a transfomer and not an inverter. If you set the machine in A/C mode to be 50% clean and 50% penetration then the output amps on the digital readout is correct. If you set the machine up to be 25/75 then that is a 50% difference in phase duration. The current builds for 50% longer and has a 50% shorter cooling period. The result is that even though you're not using any more current, you are creating and effectively storing more heat. Heat is what causes the breaker to trip. The welder can put out 250amps max in A/C mode.

In theory changing to a 50amp breaker would work but it would also void my Home Owners policy if it caused a fire.

I had to get the 50/50 out of another warehouse so I won't get it until Monday or Tuesday. I let you all know how things changed later next week.

Thanks again..

[anthonyfawley]

For that machine (Lincoln Preciion TIG 225 is what you have I assume?) the 40 amp breaker is to small. Breaker size should be a 50 amp minimum/ 70 amp maximum with #6 wire feeding the outlet from the panel. Breaker should be a inverse time or thermal/magnetic with a delay in tripping.(Super lag). How far is the outlet from the breaker panel, that will matter as well, too far and you will need to increase wire size for voltage drop. Basically you will need to replace the breaker with a 50-70 amp breaker and possibly the wire as well as a 40 AMP breaker only requires a #8 conductor. The #8 ground wire should be ok but the 2 hots should be changed to a #6. Some counties dont require a ground if the conduit to the outlet from the panel is metal but on a welder it is always recommended to run a ground wire to ensure the machine has a good ground. This will not be costly. Breakers range from 10 to around 50 bucks and the wire shouldnt be too bad either. As far as voiding your home owners policy I doubt that as long as you do it to code. As of right now you are voiding it by knowingly overloading the ampacity of the circuit. Increasing a circuit size by code will not void anything. Just because you have a 2 pole 40 amp breaker does not mean you have used 80 amps of your 100 amp service. there other variables that are taken into consideration. now i do not know what else you are using in that panel. Consult a local electrician and I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

Good Luck
Anthony

[jpence38]

Steve,
Lincoln posts on their data sheet the input current of 39 amps @ the rated output of a 100% duty cycle which is only 90 amps. If you are maxing the machine out at 200 amps, you are going to probably need around 75 amps off the panel. This is assuming an ac balance of 50/50.

[sschefer]

Steve,
Lincoln posts on their data sheet the input current of 39 amps @ the rated output of a 100% duty cycle which is only 90 amps. If you are maxing the machine out at 200 amps, you are going to probably need around 75 amps off the panel. This is assuming an ac balance of 50/50.

Fianlly, someone that understands A/C balance in split phase Mains power distribution systems. You won't believe the arguments I've been in over that.. I've got good balance at the subpanel. Nothing on that panel uses a neutral. I now have a second mini sub panel off the house main that's got the 120v circuits handled.

I sold the Lincoln and I'm ordering a Everlast 250EX. They spec max in-rush (100% current output) at 49amps. Jody's Helium/Argon video gave me the info I needed regarding welding energy differences (THANKS AGAIN JODY!!!) so I should be good to go.

You wouldn't happen to know the wire gauge they use on the power cord for the EX would you?

[Rugar]

You wouldn't happen to know the wire gauge they use on the power cord for the EX would you?

If I remember right it was 10 gauge.

[sschefer]

You wouldn't happen to know the wire gauge they use on the power cord for the EX would you?

If I remember right it was 10 gauge.

That sounds right to me. I had a heck of a time trying to make the folks on the Everlast forum understand 240v Split phase. I finally gave up.

[sschefer]

Just called Everlast, the 250EX power cord is 10ga stranded. It will run on a properly configured 30amp double pole breaker at a dedictated 240V subpanel. That means no neutrals on the sub panel but the panel box should be grounded to earth.

The Lincoln is a hog with a 8ga power cable and it needs a 50amp double pole breaker at the sub panel and at least a 75 amp breaker at the main. You'd run 6ga minimum from the main to the sub. I was running a 40 on the sub and a 50 at the main and I was blowing the 40. My main panel is balanced during the daytime but at night when lights go on it gets out of balance.

More conversations with Everlast indicate that the welder needs a 50amp breaker. I can't figure it out. They say it's setup for 3 phase but will run on single split phase. No more arugment from me. I'll start with a 30amp double pole and see where it goes from there.

[sschefer]

Just realized I'd promised an update:

1. Sold the Lincoln and got an Everlast 250EX.
2. Got a tank of UPH (Ultra Pure Helium (99.999%).
3. Got a Y connector but couldn't find B size check valves.
4. Got frustrated and bought a Smith Mixer.
5. Had to replace my gauges with new ones for mixing gas. The mixer needs gas at 105-115 psi to mix correctly.
6. Made up new hoses using 1/4 poly air compressor hose and kept them as short as possible.
7. Hooked it all up and purged the lines for at least a minute.
8. Started with 50/50 mix and had some minor problems lighting off the torch.
9. Tried 100% Helium and could not light off the torch.
10. Tried 80 Ar/20 He and everything was great.

Synopsis:

The mixer is the way to go if you want to play with different mixes. Personnally I think I would have been just as well off buying a bottle of 80/20. It would have saved me a couple of grand.

80/20 was adequate to go from 125a to 90a welding 1/8" 6061 with 3/32 tung and 5056 filler rod.
50/50 with 160a welded 1/4" using a 1/8" tung and 1/8" rod. I started with a 3/32 tung and the arc spread out too much and caused a wide flat weld. It still had reasonably good penetration but it looked too hot and frosty. A mix of 80/20 with 1/8" rod and 1/8" tung at 175a (max) gave the best results.

Welder - The Everlast 250EX is adequate to get the work I have in front of me done. I've run it maxed out with a 30a breaker on a balanced subpanel. The power problem is solved.

I upgraded the foot pedal to one I had made by SSC controls. It resembles the Lincoln low profile style and works far better than the one that come with the welder. I also added a CK 200 torch with a gas valve to cut back on gas loss. Overall I'd rate it A+ when comparing value to cost. After trying out a Miller Dynasty 350 and 700 I would choose the 350 over the 250EX. However, with my power situation the 250EX is the best choice unitl next spring when I have the power company put a separate 200amp service in my shop.

[Sarge]

I am not an electrician either, however I have been in your boat so to speak...lol. If you can go three phase that will help. I think your lead wires are too small. #4 would be what I would recommend and I think you are gonna have to go to a bigger breaker. Just had this issue 6 months ago. My 175 SQ wave will even pop a 50 single phase running wide open. The shorter you can make your lead with heavier wire will help. Trying to find the link that I used to determine the wire size vs. length vs. amp usage. I will post when I find it again.

[Sarge]

Here is the link I promised. Have fun!

[Sarge]

I guess I will actually post it this time.... http://www.southwire.com/ProductCatalog/voltdrop.jsp

[sschefer]

Electrically, I'm golden now. This spring I'm having another 200amps brought in from the pole so I don't have to rob from the house. Theres no third wire on the pole so three phase is out and they've only got one transformer on the pole so 460 is also not an option. I'm stuck with 240 split phase but that's o.k. because the 200amps that I get will be clear of any other circuits and it will be plenty.

[Otto Nobedder]

I think you've taken the right path. Simply put, electricity is MUCH cheaper than Helium. I often weld Al to 1/4 inch with 100% argon at work, but I have the benefit of "unlimited" electricity (460/3phase). At the current price of helium, it's cheaper to upgrade your panel.

Steve

[Wobulate]

Steve,

Please excuse me if I follow your upgrade path.
It seems you just performed a complete circle with your equipment, pending a 200A upgrade to your shop in the very near future.
You spent a lot of cash to get to a temporary equipment state that could have supported your original Lincoln welder without any problem.
In fact, with that much power available, you could have purchased a used Synchrowave 250 or 351.

You did learn a lot in the process, and thanks for detailing everything you did.

Good luck with your new setup.
Wob

[sschefer]

Wob, I may never do the 200a upgrade. I don't need to unless I actually go and get the Dynasty 350 which I'm finding now that I probably don't need. My Everlast 250EX and a 80/20 mix seems to be just fine on 3/8" Al. I was learning and overthinking all along the way. Now that I've got some time under my belt things are different than I thought they would be. Stuff happens.

FYI, I run my 250EX maxed out on a 30amp breaker and haven't even warmed it. A lot of guy's say it can't be done but I'm doing it.

Oh, about spending a lot of cash, I'm 58 and have been working my ass off all my life.. I scrimped and saved and scrimped and saved and for what, a nice casket???? Who gives a crap about saving money now, I'm gonna have fun before I die. Did I mention I had a minor heart attack last Saturday.. yeah, makes you think hard about crap like this.. LOL....

I think I'll take a break from boat building this weekend and go play with my latest frivolous expenditure... It's a little dirty cuz I ran through my ass-hole neighbors yard this morning on the way to work... Just kidding. Ewwww that sure would feel good though...