What welding projects are you working on? Are you proud of something you built?
How about posting some pics so other welders can get some ideas?
rickbreeezy
  • Posts:
  • Joined:
    Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:33 pm

Wow check out the big brains on Steve!

Since you seem to know alot about it, what exactly is the "plasma" produced by a plasma cutter?
User avatar
  • Posts:
  • Joined:
    Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:40 pm
  • Location:
    Near New Orleans

Plasma is a state of matter where the heat is so intense that atomic nuclei and electrons can no longer hold on to each other. This makes the flow of current through the jet of air from the plasma torch possible and self-sustaining. The "plasma", then, is the superheated, ionized air that is cutting the metal.

The Sun's corona is mostly plasma, in the million degree range. Oddly, the Sun's surface is about 11.000 degrees, near the temperature of a stick-welding arc.

That's why this fellow's questions interest me.

Steve
ProjectStardust
  • Posts:
  • Joined:
    Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:04 am

Hello again, Steve, and many thanks for your swift, and positive reply.

YES - (actually; YES!!!!!) - I am very, very interested in this, and your offer to participate is most appreciated.

In order for this to have the optimal scientific value, it is very important to (as best as we can) to separate the various samples, and be as specific as possible in the notes (what exactly that particular sample is). Just use the normal/common terminology (so other welders, in future references, understand).

Do you want me send you some small, clean snap seal plastic bags, a magnet (for picking up small particles), etc? Here's my private email address, just tell me if you want me to send this to you , and to what address. If you do not need this, here's my postal address: Jon Larsen, PO Box 5202 Majorstua, 0302 Oslo, Norway. Make sure you leave a return address, so at least I can send you some music in return.

Thank you very, much!!

Our Project Stardust was initiated last year, by yours truly, and is now a loosly connected bunch of scientists (geology/astronomy/chemistry) who in our free hours try to solve a mystery: micrometeorites are a fact (described from what they have found in the South Pole Water Well - in the ice layers from app year 800-1200, before industrialisation, and there are app 25 different types+-), and the calculated rate of fall on Earth (ground) is "one particle at 0,2 mm diameter, per square meter, per year". This is quite a lot, in sum at least 40 ton per year! Nevertheless, several of our industrial/human activities also create small ojects that look confusingly similar to micrometeorites - and welding and oxy fuel cutting torch products are the most similar. Because of this, scientists have never done research on the "spherules" found in industriel/urban areas, it has simply been too difficult to diffrenciate the one (extraterrestriel ojects) from the other (artefacts). Our project is about finding methodes - if possible - to separate these two. So far we have made a lot of new discoveries, and my personal hunch is that if we manage to separate the various objects you can provide, from the very similar extraterrestriel ones - then the road is open to us. And science get 40 tons of very, very interesting space material to study, each year! Practically for free.

We have a facebookpage about this (including a growing collection of photos!): Project Stardust - Jon Larsen, welcome to join us! You - the experts on these artefacts - leave comments!

At the moment there are none of us who are working against a PhD on this (I am the only one of us, actually, without one, and I do not care about that kind of things), but they will come, within a few years. This is cutting edge science, and a lot of disciplines will benefit from this; remember that nasa and Japan in 2010-11 alone, have spent billions of $ in order to get a few milligram of space dust from an asteroide back to Earth. In the future - maybe - one can just sweep up the same objects with a broom, or a magnet, from any pavement. And we'll learn a lot more about the beginning of the universe, and ultimately, who we are.

And re. temperature on the sun, etc: the micrometeorites are not created by the sun, it is vice versa: the sun was created by gravitational forces in the original cloud of dust that created our solar system. And later the planets, etc. The main part of the micrometeorites are dustparticles from this ancient, original cloud, older than our own solar system! And they still "rain" silently down upon us. It is their dramatic passage through our atmosphere which melt them, and - as the other guy pointed out - add the oxygen (which is not present in the sun). So when you see a falling star, you can think of it as a very similar process to the weldin/cutting torch: iron + oxygen at high temperature. The sparkling result is the same, the iron oxide FeO (II-iron), a mineral called wüstite, practically absent on Earth, but is found in a few meteorites, and is common in micrometeorites. And you, propably, see this every day.

Once again: thank you, Steve! And if other gentlemen out there want to participate with more samples from their welding/oxy fuel cutting torch debris, you are most welcome to join the party.

Sincerely yours,
PROJECT STARDUST
Jon Larsen
User avatar
  • Posts:
  • Joined:
    Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:40 pm
  • Location:
    Near New Orleans

Jon,

I do not suggest that micrometeoroids are "created" by the sun, but rather influenced in their formation by the burst of plasma and accompanying shock wave at the ignition of our sun. Further, not all micrometeoroids enter our atmosphere at hypersonic speeds. I expect many to be orbiting in the plane of the proto-solar disk in appropriate orbital velocities, and entering slowly through simple gravity capture (accretion). Particles of these sizes and small masses entering at low initial velocities should land relatively unperturbed by their trip through the atmosphere.

I only have access to the most common Fe isotope, and do not have the equipment to safely attempt creating H plasma, thus I suggested He plasma. I'm not even sure my available equipment can do it. I'm accustomed to using free air or pure N2 to cut with plasma.

This experiment (obviously) interests me, and I will attempt to create a variety of samples. I appreciate your offer of materials (bags), but I have free access to the packaging required. I'm more interested in a suggestion for a suitable collecting surface. I cannot simply sweep the floor; The pock-marks and craters are filled with years of junk. Any metal sheet I would use to collect would tend to contaminate the sample, at least on one side, since it will tend to fuse. I'm leaning toward glass, unless aerogel is commercially available.

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

Steve
turbo388
  • Posts:
  • Joined:
    Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:37 pm

Jon, I realize you're 'casting a wide net' to get samples from where they come from in the real world, but have you considered going the other direction as well - renting/buying/borrowing a plasma cutter setup to get your own samples? I can see how it might help, even if only to act as a control so you can compare what you make with that process with what others send in.

Steve - for collection, what about a temporary shallow tray of sand? It'd give the samples a soft landing with minimal contamination and be super easy to collect afterwards by just stirring the sand with a magnet.
ProjectStardust
  • Posts:
  • Joined:
    Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:04 am

Hello again, Steve, and you are absolutely right: a wide net. AND I will also try to rent some gear, AND ask for more samples at our local workshops. That is a safety net, try see if we get the same result from various sources (as many as possible). One day's drive from here is one of the main building sites for oil installations in Europe, super welders. And YES - a sand tray under is perfect, because out along our roads (where the dust is accumulated, and where we do find a lot of micrometeorites), sand is normally what the artefacts land on. We have been confused for a while about that: first it looked as if some micrometeorites contained mineral grains, but aftr a while we suspected that this was partly soft melt from oxy fuel cutting torch, rolling in the sand before stiffening.

Thank you once again. I'll upload an album of photos (at our facebook site: Project Stardust - Jon Larsen) with variations of objects I suspect to be products from the cutting torch, and/or welding. Hm.. actually, when I think of it, there are some dubious (meteoritewise) bubbely glass, yellow, clear and/or green, sometimes even black, to be found a lot of places... Even is perfect spheres (diameter 0,4 - 1 mm), mainly green, black or orange, with tiny gas bubbles inside. Could be a new type of meteorites, but could also be artefacts. And then there's something that looks like very dark blue-green, practically black slag, with very, very tiny bobbles, and sometimes covered by a thin layer of FeO.... hmm... And finally, the strange "aggregates" we find everywhere: hundreds of very small (0,2-1 mm) shiny FeO spherules in a grey/white matrix - sometimes like clay, but mostly hard lik chalk. And sometimes connected to the previously mentioned black slag with the very tiny bubbles.

I have photographed these things for a year now (more than 20.000 photos), and think I will recognize these phenomena in most varieties.

Again, your help is most appreciated!

Best wishes,
Jon
turbo388
  • Posts:
  • Joined:
    Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:37 pm

Colors, you say? :D

Image
ProjectStardust
  • Posts:
  • Joined:
    Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:04 am

Wt@#! What is this beauty? Not so easy to see the details, but I get the outline... amazing!
sschefer
  • Posts:
  • Joined:
    Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:44 pm

Jon, first off, this is a very interesting post. All winds start at the south pole and end at the north pole so the South Pole is the most logical location for capturing the purest dust and the very reason why operation Deep Freeze is there. We capture and measure atmospheric contamination at the North Pole. These guys like to talk so you might try writing to them. It might save you a lot of work and certainly a lot of trips to the recylcer when all this slag starts arriving at your door.
Highly skilled at turning expensive pieces of metal into useless but recyclable crap..
ProjectStardust
  • Posts:
  • Joined:
    Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:04 am

Aha! Thanks again for the info. But what is the photo?
User avatar
  • Posts:
  • Joined:
    Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:40 pm
  • Location:
    Near New Orleans

Turbo388,

Sand sounds like the perfect capture medium. Thanks for the suggestion. I have access to very clean sand used in our media blasting.

Steve
User avatar
  • Posts:
  • Joined:
    Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:40 pm
  • Location:
    Near New Orleans

Jon, I believe I have enough information now (thanks to turbo388's suggestion) to begin collecting some samples, beginning Monday. I'll create as broad an array as I have the materials and equipment for.

If it's not obvious yet, I'm familiar with the scientific method, and the samples will be annotated as accurately as I am able.

Steve.
turbo388
  • Posts:
  • Joined:
    Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:37 pm

The last photo I posted? I have no idea, just another one of the weird things that inhabit my back yard. That one is about 3cm x 5cm oblong, very light, and non-magnetic.
ProjectStardust
  • Posts:
  • Joined:
    Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:04 am

Thank you very much! And yes, Steve, that is obvious...!
Jon
User avatar
  • Posts:
  • Joined:
    Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:40 pm
  • Location:
    Near New Orleans

Jon,

Another thought occurred to me, and it might take some time to achieve results.

Suppose a bank of magnets, covering, say, a square meter and covered with a thin UV-resistant plastic film were placed film-side-up 10 meters above ground level in a rural (or at least a non-industrial) area. Barring a major wind storm, any particles captured by this bank of magnets would very likely have extraterrestrial origins, and provide a clear control group.

Further, an accumulation rate per square meter could be deduced for iron-bearing micrometeorites.

The plastic film would provide for easy collection.

Just a thought...

Steve
kermdawg
  • Posts:
  • Joined:
    Tue May 25, 2010 8:16 pm
  • Location:
    All over, mostly southwest USA

Im curious to see the results of otto's experiment with the magnets just to see how many particles -wouldnt- be extraterrestrial. What im saying is how much of that dust we're breathing is actually metal, or ferrous.
Signature? Who needs a F***ing signature?
User avatar
  • Posts:
  • Joined:
    Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:40 pm
  • Location:
    Near New Orleans

kermdog,

That might be an interesting experiment entirely on it's own. I suggested height and rural isolation to reduce any man-made contribution. It might be interesting to set up a magnet-capture in the heart of an urban or industrial area, and, as you suggest, see how much ferrous material is in the air. While it wouldn't tell us how much of the non-ferrous metals are present, we might be able to infer them, as a percentage of industrial production relative to iron. We breath a lot of crap every day. I have to believe people in industrial areas breath a lot more of it.

Steve
kermdawg
  • Posts:
  • Joined:
    Tue May 25, 2010 8:16 pm
  • Location:
    All over, mostly southwest USA

I was thinking the same thing. I would also love to set one up one a jobsite with alot of weldin goin on, I mean you see how much of that metal dust ends up on the ground. I wonder how much stays in the air that we actually breath.

Obvoiusly you couldnt set it up close to where actual welding and stuff is going on, but like you said, 50 or 100 feet in the air around the site.
Signature? Who needs a F***ing signature?
turbo388
  • Posts:
  • Joined:
    Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:37 pm

Set one up near railroad tracks and it would look like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wooly_Willy

(way off topic but slightly related: Am I the only one who keeps a salvaged NIB hard drive magnet in the tool box for collecting the iron filings that inevitably end up stuck to my eyeballs? They're nickel plated, very smooth, and work great as long as you keep them clean, like in a little ziplock baggie.)
kermdawg
  • Posts:
  • Joined:
    Tue May 25, 2010 8:16 pm
  • Location:
    All over, mostly southwest USA

Maybe :)

Im trying to find a pair of tight goggles that wont fog up to wear under my face shield when Im grinding. As anyone whos ever used one knows, if you wear a faceshield over your hardhat and grind/drill, then look up, you get a pair of eyes full of crap every time. Safety glasses dont do a damn thing no matter what kind they are.
Signature? Who needs a F***ing signature?
User avatar
  • Posts:
  • Joined:
    Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:40 pm
  • Location:
    Near New Orleans

kermdawg wrote:...Obvoiusly you couldnt set it up close to where actual welding and stuff is going on, but like you said, 50 or 100 feet in the air around the site.
Why not stick a magnet right inside your hood, right in front of your nose, and see how much it accumulates in a day? Just as a personal experiment?

The answer may scare you, especially if there's a lot of grinding near you. In fact, you might just keep the magnet there.

Steve
kermdawg
  • Posts:
  • Joined:
    Tue May 25, 2010 8:16 pm
  • Location:
    All over, mostly southwest USA

Oh I got a pretty good idea of how much crap I inhale everyday. Im curious as to see if it spreads outside the jobsite, or if it stays neatly contained inside the building.

Honestly though, the magnet on the welding hood isnt the worst of ideas. I wonder if it is worth a shot now.
Signature? Who needs a F***ing signature?
User avatar
  • Posts:
  • Joined:
    Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:40 pm
  • Location:
    Near New Orleans

Since we are diverging from Jon's original topic, I'll start a new thread on this subject.

Steve
kermdawg
  • Posts:
  • Joined:
    Tue May 25, 2010 8:16 pm
  • Location:
    All over, mostly southwest USA

I dunno, Jon might like all the attention his thread is getting. I think its the longest in forum history :)
Signature? Who needs a F***ing signature?
ProjectStardust
  • Posts:
  • Joined:
    Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:04 am

It's all linked together: the main part of the micrometeorites that is reaching Earth are so small that they drift around in the atmosphere (= aerosole particles). Nasa scientists collect micrometeorites from the upper atmosphere by plane. And I remember having read someones estimate on how many micrometeorites each one of us actually will swollow in our sleep during a lifetime - think it was two. The problem with aerosole micrometeorites is that they are so small (~1-20 microns), very difficult to handle. In my own research I've put a limit downwards to 500 micron (half millimeter), which, in comparison, is easy to see and handle.

My old man was a professional welder his whole life, plus chainsmoking, so I worried about his lungs - actually mostly because of the welding, etc. However, now he's 85, and still no problems with his lungs!
Post Reply