[TraditionalToolworks]

and the Maxstar 150 will not run 6010 according to Miller.

FWIW, lots of people would disagree with you on the Miller forum.

Seems a lot of them are running 6010 on their Maxstar 150 boxes. Some say you need to keep the arc short, but in general there are many that are burning 6010 with those little boxes.

[Spartan]

and the Maxstar 150 will not run 6010 according to Miller.

FWIW, lots of people would disagree with you on the Miller forum.

Seems a lot of them are running 6010 on their Maxstar 150 boxes. Some say you need to keep the arc short, but in general there are many that are burning 6010 with those little boxes.

They wouldn't be disagreeing with me at all. I have no dog in that fight. They'd be disagreeing with Miller

https://www.millerwelds.com/frequently-asked-questions

[TraditionalToolworks]

They wouldn't be disagreeing with me at all. I have no dog in that fight. They'd be disagreeing with Miller

https://www.millerwelds.com/frequently-asked-questions

That's kind of like Primeweld saying they only support 6013 I guess...although the vendor here in the U.S. told me the machine is capable of running all rod depending on how competent the welder is. I'll tell 'ya, that didn't give me the warm fuzzies about running it to be honest...but in the end I am more than a happy. Miller knows their machines well though, maybe that's why I can get 6010 to run on my machine, not sure, but maybe it not enough to really run it but will run it half @$$'d.

Do you know what type of inductance level it takes for a machine to run cellulose properly? And is it possible to calculate what a machine's inductance level is? Would one need a special meter?

Seems either Louie or Oscar mentioned something about the amount needed. I'll have to go back up and look through this thread.

[Spartan]

Do you know what type of inductance level it takes for a machine to run cellulose properly? And is it possible to calculate what a machine's inductance level is? Would one need a special meter?

I've been out of school for far too long, but I would think their "inductance" line is marketing wank that really means their transformers (inverters still use transformers for people unaware) are not designed to output voltages at the higher level needed to run 6010.

i.e., I don't think the "inductance" in their argument has anything to do with the welding process, but more to do with the machine's power supplies post-conversion.

[Oscar]

I've actually never heard of inductance being discussed outside of MIG welding discussions. Even in Esab's extremely detailed tutorials, it never mention inductance for stick welding power supplies. In that article, it describes inductance with respect to short-circuiting events in GMAW to control current-rise rate [at the actual short-circuit event] and thus helping control the metal transfer characteristics. AFAIK, stick welding is a globular transfer method.

Bottom of page: https://www.esabna.com/euweb/awtc/lesson2_36.htm

[v5cvbb]

I ran a few each of 3/32" & 1/8" 6010 tonight with the Primeweld Tig225.

They did run ok. Easy to strike an arc. Enough arc force to dig in fine, but not enough to punch through plate like some welders.
Plenty of voltage to step out of the puddle for whip and pause. Voltage is high enough to get at least 3/8" arc length. You can strike ahead and back into a restart if you hold a close arc. The long arc capability is nothing like my Miller Thunderbolt transformer. Didn't expect it would.

Very respectable performance for a machine that shouldn't run 6010 at all. I'll definitely use the Primeweld rather than getting another welder out when in the barn.

Just thought I would add another opinion to Alan's thread since I have the same machine.

[TraditionalToolworks]

Just thought I would add another opinion to Alan's thread since I have the same machine.

I for one do appreciate your input.

You gotta admit, for such an inexpensive welder this Primeworld really impresses, doesn't it? Speaking for myself, my Primeweld is working out better than my Everlast i-Tig 201, I had to buy a CK Worldwide Flexhead for it. The Primeweld does everything I have asked of it, and it weighs 48 lbs.

[Oscar]

I ran a few each of 3/32" & 1/8" 6010 tonight with the Primeweld Tig225.

They did run ok. Easy to strike an arc. Enough arc force to dig in fine, but not enough to punch through plate like some welders.
Plenty of voltage to step out of the puddle for whip and pause. Voltage is high enough to get at least 3/8" arc length. You can strike ahead and back into a restart if you hold a close arc. The long arc capability is nothing like my Miller Thunderbolt transformer. Didn't expect it would.

Very respectable performance for a machine that shouldn't run 6010 at all. I'll definitely use the Primeweld rather than getting another welder out when in the barn.

Just thought I would add another opinion to Alan's thread since I have the same machine.

That's good to know. How do the beads look? Which brand rod did you use?

[TraditionalToolworks]

Which brand rod did you use?

He showed the rod above, Inweld.

[Oscar]

Roger that. I had forgotten.

[v5cvbb]

The 3/32" were Inweld. The 1/8" are unknown from LWS. Lincoln I think.

I didn't take a pic Oscar. They looked like any other 6010 bead I've ran. Showed every little manipulation of the rod. Typical fast freeze rod. I was just switching techniques, playing with are length, doing restarts, not trying to stack dimes. Not that I'm Instagram good anyway.

Oscar, from some other post, yes impressive scissors. I'll pick up another couple pairs to spread around the house, shop and barn.

Alan, 91-92A was dead on for me too. 67A worked well with 3/32". It was nice running a few beads. I hadn't stick welded with Primeweld since day one, and never on 240V. I end up using the 210STL on 120V for out of the shop repairs.

[TraditionalToolworks]

Alan, 91-92A was dead on for me too. 67A worked well with 3/32". It was nice running a few beads. I hadn't stick welded with Primeweld since day one, and never on 240V. I end up using the 210STL on 120V for out of the shop repairs.

I've never plugged either of my machines into 120v yet, mainly because I had made a pigtail to go from L6-30->6-50 and have always just plugged them into the 30 amp 240v circuit. I should try that sometime, but my main problem is my 120v circuit is only 20 amps, and not sure how much that would give me on MMA. In the manual it says the Primeweld will supply 120 amps on MMA running on a 120v circuit. MMA is the biggest draw on inverters, iMax is 38.1 amps for 220v and 46.3 amps on 110v. I don't know if 120v/240v will bring that down or not, but that's what they show on the machine.

My 20 amp 120v is less than half that Imax on the electrical chart. The chart also states 120 amps max on 110v, and 180 amps on 220v, FWIW...

Considering that most homes only have 20 amp 120v breakers, like mine, it leaves low power, especially for MMA which uses more than TIG.

All food for thought, my point is that MMA is a pretty big draw on power, even on 240v it draws more than my 30 amp circuit which is marginal for TIG running at 225 amp also...I would like to replace my 30 amp breakers with 40 amp breakers to be safe. In the new shop that won't be an issue, however, my Everlast i-Tig 201 is most likely going to the lake.

[Oscar]

In the manual it says the Primeweld will supply 120 amps on MMA running on a 120v circuit. .....46.3 amps on 110v. I don't know if 120v/240v will bring that down or not, but that's what they show on the machine.

IMO it's a selling point for DV machines (and a lot of 120V machines especially), but what many don't explicitly state is that you need LOTS of amps on that 120V circuit to reach that kind of welding amperage. They want you to assume that it will pull off such craziness on a 20A circuit. That's where astute observations of the electrical specification sticker comes into play and understanding how all those things really play out. On my specific testing, I ran my Inverarc 200TLP on a voltage transformer on a regular 120V shared circuit (garage lights are on the same circuit). I was able to get about 90-95A with a "loose" 1½-rod-diameter arc length while consuming all 20A from that circuit. With a tighter arc length <1-rod-diameter, current draw on the input side dropped to 15-16A. Extrapolating this, I'd say the reasonable limit for a 120V/20A circuit is ≈110-115A welding current with a tight arc length, maybe up to 120A for a very efficient inverter welder.

[TraditionalToolworks]

Extrapolating this, I'd say the reasonable limit for a 120V/20A circuit is ≈110-115A welding current with a tight arc length, maybe up to 120A for a very efficient inverter welder.

I agree, but don't think I could get 120A on my Primeweld, considering they state you need 46.3 amps to feed that. Maybe it could, but I seriously doubt it.

Your numbers look better than I would have guessed, I would have thought about 70 amps for MMA given half of the electrical amps needed, but it must not scale like that...either way, 120v circuits are not the way to go for welders because of the low electrical input from most home circuits. I would say 3/32" rod for 7018, possibly 1/8" 6010/6011 as it takes less amps to run it.

[v5cvbb]

I've had no problem running the Primeweld or 210STL on 120V 20A circuit using 3/32" electrodes. As long as extension cords aren't involved. The it gets tricky, but it is possible.

110V capable machines open up options and solve problems when stuff needs fixed away from the shop.

[TraditionalToolworks]

110V capable machines open up options and solve problems when stuff needs fixed away from the shop.

Absolutely, I didn't mean to imply otherwise.

However, some machines seem pretty marginal on 120v. As an example, the Primeweld says 38.1 amps for 220v and 46.3 for 110v, and this will provide 180a of stick welding on 220v and 120a of stick on 110v. (using their volt numbers, 110/220).

This is a pretty big spread, not to mention that's a lot of amps for a 120v circuit in most any home. As I have mentioned most homes have 20 amp breakers for 110v circuits, but not all...there are some 30 amp circuits and even higher, but it would be rare to find a 40 amp 110v circuit, IMO, and even rarer to find a 50 amp 110v circuit which the Primeweld says it would need.

In contrast, my green weenie requires 28.6a at 120v and 27.5a at 240v (using Everlast's number for volts, 120v/240v). This will provide 100a of stick on 120v and 125a of stick on 240v. Notice how much closer the spread is on these numbers amp wise. Uses almost half of what the Primeweld says it uses on 120v to get close to the same output.

I fully concur with what you say, 120v ability is useful, but we see a lot of people trying to run machines on 120v and limping along at best, popping the breaker, etc...I do have a use at my yard where I do have 120v, but I currently have a 20 amp 240v breaker which my air compressor is plugged into and I will bump that up to a 30 amp 240v or 40 amp 240v as the shed is on a 50 amp breaker from the front yard. I hope to be out of there soon, and power is moot at my lake property, I have 320 amps to do whatever I want with. Still, doesn't mean I won't want 120v at some point if I go somewhere there is ONLY 120v. My Everlast is almost half the weight of the Primeweld at 48 lbs., and weighs in at 28 lbs.. Also has a strap to toss it over your shoulder, so it could come in handy some day for some remote type job where only 120v is available.

[DavidR8]

Absolutely, I didn't mean to imply otherwise.

However, some machines seem pretty marginal on 120v. As an example, the Primeweld says 38.1 amps for 220v and 46.3 for 110v, and this will provide 180a of stick welding on 220v and 120a of stick on 110v. (using their volt numbers, 110/220).

This is a pretty big spread, not to mention that's a lot of amps for a 120v circuit in most any home. As I have mentioned most homes have 20 amp breakers for 110v circuits, but not all...there are some 30 amp circuits and even higher, but it would be rare to find a 40 amp 110v circuit, IMO, and even rarer to find a 50 amp 110v circuit which the Primeweld says it would need.

In contrast, my green weenie requires 28.6a at 120v and 27.5a at 240v (using Everlast's number for volts, 120v/240v). This will provide 100a of stick on 120v and 125a of stick on 240v. Notice how much closer the spread is on these numbers amp wise. Uses almost half of what the Primeweld says it uses on 120v to get close to the same output.

I fully concur with what you say, 120v ability is useful, but we see a lot of people trying to run machines on 120v and limping along at best, popping the breaker, etc...I do have a use at my yard where I do have 120v, but I currently have a 20 amp 240v breaker which my air compressor is plugged into and I will bump that up to a 30 amp 240v or 40 amp 240v as the shed is on a 50 amp breaker from the front yard. I hope to be out of there soon, and power is moot at my lake property, I have 320 amps to do whatever I want with. Still, doesn't mean I won't want 120v at some point if I go somewhere there is ONLY 120v. My Everlast is almost half the weight of the Primeweld at 48 lbs., and weighs in at 28 lbs.. Also has a strap to toss it over your shoulder, so it could come in handy some day for some remote type job where only 120v is available.

Curious to see what was available for 110v 50A breakers I discovered that Home Depot carries a 110v 50A for the astonishingly low price of $13. Not that I'm considering running it on 110v in the shop as I still need to run a 240V 30A (or 40A) circuit for my welder.

[Poland308]

Lincoln 210 mp will output 140 amps on 120v 15amps in. https://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us/E ... nElectric)

[v5cvbb]

Alan, are those Primeweld numbers the max or effective values? I don't remember. Regardless, it's not one to kick breakers often. I maxed it out tig welding on 110V no problem, and it stick welds 3/32” so I call that good enough!

The machine has its limits though. It couldn't make me good enough to braze thin wall brass tubing last night. Ok, maybe that's not the fault of the machine.

[v5cvbb]

Lincoln 210 mp will output 140 amps on 120v 15amps in. https://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us/E ... nElectric)

I'm what process? I don't think I'll believe that until I see it. That would be 12.9V arc voltage at 100% efficiency.

[TraditionalToolworks]

Curious to see what was available for 110v 50A breakers I discovered that Home Depot carries a 110v 50A for the astonishingly low price of $13. Not that I'm considering running it on 110v in the shop as I still need to run a 240V 30A (or 40A) circuit for my welder.

Didn't mean to imply you can't get the breakers, just that most homes have 20 amp circuits in them. Some have higher. I'm also a bit surprised that you can get 50 amp breakers so cheap, but it depends on which breakers your box takes. My house only has 125 amps for the entire home and shop.

Lincoln 210 mp will output 140 amps on 120v 15amps in. https://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us/E ... nElectric)

Yes and no. The 15a is Ieff, which Kevin is asking about, but if you look at the actual manual, you need 20 amps for 120v, and you only get 80 amp of stick at 40% duty cycle, or 60 amps at 100% duty cycle, see for yourself on page 7:

https://www.lincolnelectric.com/assets/ ... t10164.pdf

Alan, are those Primeweld numbers the max or effective values?

The ones I listed were Imax, which as I understand is the max amperage required.

I don't remember. Regardless, it's not one to kick breakers often. I maxed it out tig welding on 110V no problem, and it stick welds 3/32” so I call that good enough!

I agree. 3/32" stick is acceptable, on 120v, IMO.

The machine has its limits though. It couldn't make me good enough to braze thin wall brass tubing last night. Ok, maybe that's not the fault of the machine.

What were you brazing with? Could be not getting the brass hot enough before you try to braze, in my experience. Be careful as brass has zinc in it.

[Oscar]

Yes and no. The 15a is Ieff, which Kevin is asking about, but if you look at the actual manual, you need 20 amps for 120v, and you only get 80 amp of stick at 40% duty cycle, or 60 amps at 100% duty cycle, see for yourself on page 7:

Good catch. Imax is 21.5A, which is the actual maximum current consumption at the specified welding output using that specific line voltage.

For others that are reading this, Ieff has nothing to do with what the machine consumes. Ieff is a de-rating amperage calculation that applies to the [allowable sizing of] conductors supplying the machine with power. This calculation is based on duty-cycle at the maximum rated output using that line-voltage. The lower the duty cycle, the more you are allowed to de-rate the input conductors, because the duty cycle of the machine, will simulataneously allow for the input conductors to "cool off". In this case, for that 210MP, you are allowed size the conductors as if you only needed to carry 15A. Note that this is an allowance (meaning it is permissible, not necessarily a recommendation. This is directly from the US NEC.

[TraditionalToolworks]

For others that are reading this, Ieff has nothing to do with what the machine consumes. Ieff is a de-rating amperage calculation that applies to the [allowable sizing of] conductors supplying the machine with power. This calculation is based on duty-cycle at the maximum rated output using that line-voltage. The lower the duty cycle, the more you are allowed to de-rate the input conductors, because the duty cycle of the machine, will simulataneously allow for the input conductors to "cool off". In this case, for that 210MP, you are allowed size the conductors as if you only needed to carry 15A. Note that this is an allowance (meaning it is permissible, not necessarily a recommendation. This is directly from the US NEC.

That's something I heard you say before but forgot. Interesting to note that the 210MP is only 40% duty cycle on 120v for 80 amps of MMA, and that must be why they can get that 15a Ieff rating, the fact that it only has a 40% duty cycle.

The Primeweld is also 40% duty cycle, but for 120 amps of MMA which is 50% more than the 210MP. And the Primeweld is 100% duty cycle at 76 amps of MMA on 120v. Yet it requires more input amps. But that's interesting that the Primeweld can weld at 100% duty cycle where the 210MP can only weld at 40% duty cycle at approx. the same amps.

And to be fair, 80 amps is really not enough to burn 3/32" 7018, just sayin'...you can burn 3/32" 6010/6011 at that amperage. So that would limit the 210MP to 1/16" 7018 which is not a lot of welding power, unless you could squeak 3/32" 7018 out of 80 amps on 120v.

This is all confusing at best.

[JayWal]

That is if the 210 can even run 6010/6011. My Lincoln SW200 can't, so running stick in 120v is pretty useless. Lincoln claims it can run them, but mine runs for 5 seconds or so and the arc goes out. Really annoyed at that, I'm starting to like those cellulose rods more and more.

Sent from my SM-G970W using Tapatalk

[Oscar]

[that would limit the 210MP to 1/16" 7018 which is not a lot of welding power, unless you could squeak 3/32" 7018 out of 80 amps on 120v.

I wouldn't say that is the case. I'm pretty sure it will weld up to whatever amperage the 120V circuit will allow before popping the breaker. I think that is just the rating Lincoln chose to specify, for whatever reason.