Stick Welding Tips, Certification tests, machines, projects
PeteM
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olek wrote:
PeteM wrote:
olek wrote: Well so the arc force regulation , when there is one, , is possibly the "fine setting" ? WIth zero arc force I noticed a very buttery arc, not so unpleasant but I did put arc force back trying 10 20 30 until I find a strenght that suits my need

Mixing that regulation and amps is more difficult, at that point I do not understand yet very well what makes what.

But its coming ;) For instance I think raising arc force and lowering amps may fight too strong spatter while allowing enough penetration.
There ya go! Sometimes a little tinkering with it does more than thousands of words.

In the cert. courses I took, there was a 15 min. instructional followed by 3.75 hrs. of practice.


"I think " means "I have noticed that, but I am not so sure"
In my opinion, penetration and its importance is vastly overstated in welding, especially at the amateur level. The mixture ratio for filler metal to base is ideally a 70/30 mix. Therefore on a 1/8 inch weld, the penetration and mixture only needs to be approximately 1/3 the thickness of the bead size, or 1/24 of an inch of actual penetration into the base metal.

Best way to check that is a cut/polish/etch analysis, and for actual soundness of the weld- beat it till it breaks.

Fusion (or lack thereof) and the re-crystallization of the metal is the real key to a good weld.

Something to think about- Take a scribe and scratch a line down a piece of metal. Now ask yourself what amount of metal is holding one side of that scratch to the other?
olek
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PeteM wrote:
olek wrote: Well so the arc force regulation , when there is one, , is possibly the "fine setting" ? WIth zero arc force I noticed a very buttery arc, not so unpleasant but I did put arc force back trying 10 20 30 until I find a strenght that suits my need

Mixing that regulation and amps is more difficult, at that point I do not understand yet very well what makes what.

But its coming ;) For instance I think raising arc force and lowering amps may fight too strong spatter while allowing enough penetration



"I think " means "I have noticed that, but I am not so sure"
In my opinion, penetration and its importance is vastly overstated in welding, especially at the amateur level. The mixture ratio for filler metal to base is ideally a 70/30 mix. Therefore on a 1/8 inch weld, the penetration and mixture only needs to be approximately 1/3 the thickness of the bead size, or 1/24 of an inch of actual penetration into the base metal.

Best way to check that is a cut/polish/etch analysis, and for actual soundness of the weld- beat it till it breaks.

Fusion (or lack thereof) and the re-crystallization of the metal is the real key to a good weld.

Something to think about- Take a scribe and scratch a line down a piece of metal. Now ask yourself what amount of metal is holding one side of that scratch to the other?
M

Thanks, then what tool may I consider to cut, (also to cut st 45 90deg tubes for building), static cutting disk, electrical saw ?

Not too expensive, dust collection if possible (I cannot afford to put metal dust everywhere)
.

See I am studying ;) https://photos.app.goo.gl/VR1hTJ6NOsGugMjs1 today
Vertical downhill, 7018 (using most of the ones from the bin) on a lap joint block so not flat.
Zero arc force 1/8 118 to 125A

As it was somewhat frustrating, I added a coat of 4mm 6013 going up. 132A.. No arc force, slag as a breeze

Yesterday : https://photos.app.goo.gl/m70TJ4vp66a3aQkl1

I do not complain I make beads and beads, and I try to understand what happen with arc force and without.

Always trying to weld with enough amps.
One hand, standing. I used chalk lines but laterally once half of the plate is done the chalk is under the dust..

I do not cut and etch do often because of the dust but sure I will.

Regards and thank you for the interesting and precise explanations

(for the line scratches, I don't get the comparison, but let me think about it ;)
Last edited by olek on Thu Jul 27, 2017 1:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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7018 is not a vertical down rod - at least none that I've purchased on this side of the pond.

Up is the direction for that joint with 7018.
Dave J.

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olek
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MinnesotaDave wrote:7018 is not a vertical down rod - at least none that I've purchased on this side of the pond.

Up is direction for that joint with 7018.


http://www.weldtrade.pl/ok4800-25mm-p-8 ... kazje.info


Ceci explique cela..in the end, I did not verify, those are Esab 48.00. what a waste, it worked somehow making 'smiles' but even then the puddle very suddenly pass the rod is one is not very cautious. Not descending you see right

Anyway due to the 'stairs' shape it was very difficult, at each step change of rod angle to avoid sudden drop.

with a short arc the bead is flat, too flat

Mistake...
Last edited by olek on Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Pianos , restorer and tuner
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olek
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7810 up 3/32 & fillet joint.

Now it seem to be better.

If only I could have better viewing, I am not shaking, I am rolling (I forget rattle :))

I can weld Stevie Wonder style!
.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/S0S5ZVeV8jZTTQ0Q2
Pianos , restorer and tuner
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PeteM
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Those beads on the right side of the triangle are looking pretty decent.
olek
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PeteM wrote:Those beads on the right side of the triangle are looking pretty decent.

Thank you for taking time to look at them.

I begun with DCEN and had some sticking while raising amps from 80 up to 95A. Those sticks. want a lot of energy to do their thing. So with EN they will need a little dig function to avoid using too high amperage. (on thin steel >
Doing regulation on the final plate is risky

I then changed to DCEP, zero dig but 90A I even tested 95. Slag peel easily it help
I even left slag in place and weld on it the next bead, once or twice as I felt I had enough energy to melt the under slag.

I suppose not recommended to do so. It did not cause trouble apparently.

Regards

Btw I did cut with a grinder and cutting disk. Then find it difficult to see the bead, the haz, I finally saw them but with very low contrast (difficult to make pics with my smartphone) . Is not the cutting disk heating much the metal ?
I did file with the angle grinder , a lot . (then used 5% nitric acid in isopropyl alcool)
I ask because I was said one need to file about 1mm thickness on a water refreshed stone \wheel so to get rid of the haz of the initial cutting. hence my precedent inquiry, are the fixed cutters (metal disk) heating less ? what tool(s) to cut and etch ?

Image
Pianos , restorer and tuner
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olek
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PeteM wrote:
olek wrote: "I think " means "I have noticed that, but I am not so sure"
In my opinion, penetration and its importance is vastly overstated in welding, especially at the amateur level. The mixture ratio for filler metal to base is ideally a 70/30 mix. Therefore on a 1/8 inch weld, the penetration and mixture only needs to be approximately 1/3 the thickness of the bead size, or 1/24 of an inch of actual penetration into the base metal.

Best way to check that is a cut/polish/etch analysis, and for actual soundness of the weld- beat it till it breaks.

Fusion (or lack thereof) and the re-crystallization of the metal is the real key to a good weld.

Something to think about- Take a scribe and scratch a line down a piece of metal. Now ask yourself what amount of metal is holding one side of that scratch to the other?

Do you mean that the mix quality (amount percentage and heat,) could be more important than pure penetration?
Pianos , restorer and tuner
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PeteM
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olek wrote:
PeteM wrote:
olek wrote: "I think " means "I have noticed that, but I am not so sure"
In my opinion, penetration and its importance is vastly overstated in welding, especially at the amateur level. The mixture ratio for filler metal to base is ideally a 70/30 mix. Therefore on a 1/8 inch weld, the penetration and mixture only needs to be approximately 1/3 the thickness of the bead size, or 1/24 of an inch of actual penetration into the base metal.

Best way to check that is a cut/polish/etch analysis, and for actual soundness of the weld- beat it till it breaks.

Fusion (or lack thereof) and the re-crystallization of the metal is the real key to a good weld.

Something to think about- Take a scribe and scratch a line down a piece of metal. Now ask yourself what amount of metal is holding one side of that scratch to the other?

Do you mean that the mix quality (amount percentage and heat,) could be more important than pure penetration?
Yes. The actual composition and structure of the weld is more important than penetration. The term "penetration" and what is seen in a cross section of a weld is actually just a function of the heat, but the nugget, its composition, and the structure of the mixture of the base metal and filler is what actually holds pieces together.
olek
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Great answers lately. I have some food to though.

How does that look? (angle up 3/32 7018)

https://photos.app.goo.gl/HTXg03NVGEFgH7Xh1


Regards
Pianos , restorer and tuner
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PeteM
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A little rough, actually. I'd drop any thoughts of manipulations or swirling, and focus on arc placement. Point the electrode at the base metal about the thickness of the electrode above the previously deposited weld, pause for a moment, then move quickly across the weld to the other side to deposit again. Keep a tight Z motion upward through the weld. That is what some call "sticking the sides". Like sticking the landing in gymnastics.

If you point it into the corner between the base metal and previous weld it gets that humpy lump and creates a crevice that is prone to slag inclusion and lack of fusion.

That should smooth out the face of the weld as you become attuned to the burn off rate at a given current.
Poland308
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Many of the pics you've posted lately are looking better. But they all look like you need to slow down. Bond weave so fast or so far. Hold just a little longer at the edges and let them fill in.
I have more questions than answers

Josh
olek
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Thank you for your comments and advice.

Yes, particularly with 7018, I begin in the high range of amps then lower till I have a nice arc and the slag is not burned
But sure it push me to move fast, yet too fast generally, I agree.

On the 3f I purposely
wanted to make the "Christmas tree" or "triangle" manipulation.

Image

Some French welders told me that 'triangle' progression is preferred. It should not make big drops, (but it fall indeed) just sort of triangular shapes one on the other (but you may know that method I am sure)

Mounting the beads from the sides, making a small inverted smile or a smile,or Z, I need more training but I understood the principle. (I may leave the triangle for later probably ;)
I will train again with arc placement in mind . . Is it better to move the rod from the wrist, or to keep the same "in front" orientation (the rod is burning more angled at the sides then)

I added 3 times on the same angle with 3/32 it can be seen in the last pictures I paused long on each side (ladder style) but there is not enough in the middle a 1/8 rod may have do the job better

I will keep in mind arc placement. I just begin to feel free to move the rod angle back and forth until I see the arc and the puddle have a wanted shape, and also I push myself to take some distance, to see from a little farther.

I am happy without arc force that I do not stick too often 7018. The start is not yet mastered (and many explanations tell not to weld immediately because of the graphite extremity, that I don't know how to deal and I have porosity at the start very often with new rods.)

Really most if the time I miss correct sight, I believe I am in the corner while I am on the tight side for instance.

I hope the number 10 golden glass will help (does it lake a green filter, it seem to be the case)
https://youtu.be/FfBFbQC7obk

Thank you again for your time and useful advices
I imagine it is not easy, from pics...

Best regards
Pianos , restorer and tuner
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PeteM
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Turn your hand back and forth while holding the stinger, don't wave your wrist like a windshield wiper.

Lift your whole wrist/arm up as you move through the weld to keep your stick angle good and prevent reaching with the electrode. That will help avoid long arcing and porosity.

And yeah, those gold lenses at #10 din will be like a whole different ball game for seeing what is happening. Will likely be a significant improvement.
DFrick93
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Boy, i would think that the weld with E7018 would pass 3G,I have welded for years and a cwi,Heat is very important,AMPs So good advice,Any helpi can give Reach out!!!
olek
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PeteM wrote:Turn your hand back and forth while holding the stinger, don't wave your wrist like a windshield wiper.

Lift your whole wrist/arm up as you move through the weld to keep your stick angle good and prevent reaching with the electrode. That will help avoid long arcing and porosity.

And yeah, those gold lenses at #10 din will be like a whole different ball game for seeing what is happening. Will likely be a significant improvement.
Depending of the size of the electrode (here I mostly have 3/32 7018 left so no much choice) I may decide how large my motion will be, as because ther is no direct heating in the corner, the sides should be near of it enough (?)
I also try to make my left right motion whith an advancing into the corner, (sort of horizontal V ) so the arc lenght is kept the same; Is it a good way of doing ? (I am thinking, may be the longer arc when going right left allows to keep some heat into the corner, so the weld will flow in it naturally, in that case keeping a constant arc lenght will be counter productive (?)

Thanks, I am not sure I understand, I move my hand arm etc so the rod is always pointing the same direction

I did try to make a small left to right move with the wrist but as the angle change while the stick is wearing I am not sure it is advantageous

I will try to make one with the best arc placement today (I had too much undercut at the begin pass yesterday, I forget arc force it was at 20% but enough to stiffen the arc apparently

When mounting, is the goal to recover a little the precedent bead as when padding ? The precedent bead is cold at the moment I come back on one side. (I tend to place the arc at the apparent thickness of the precedent bead )

So really Z wave ? I find "natural" the feel when making a small arc (inverted smile) I suppose it allows more cooling under ?
But also with smiles extended as a small J letter, I was told this is the way for 3G with 6013 while reverted smile is good for 7018 , which one is flowing the most ? (or it is only because of the more present slag, smiles and J allow the slag to go down, while with the inverted smile 6013 would run in the precedent bead creating inclusions.

for the christmas tree my instructions are : begin at the right side then go immediately left and then move a little the angle to go in the corner a little higher with a little pause in the corner, then again right left , etc AMps 2/3 max of the ones on 1F .. (I guess the rod almost 90 deg horizontal for the sides) the intention is good penetration in the angle, as this is done with only one pass, no more beads, it may be considered a gain of time.
I probably can lower heat more, if I consider the 2/3 I may use 65Amps , I will give a try it may give better control, but the arc force may be necessary may be at 10 20% as sticking will be the norm ;Regards)

Thanks all for your encouragements, it was worth doing some training each day or almost
Last edited by olek on Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
Pianos , restorer and tuner
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olek
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DFrick93 wrote:Boy, i would think that the weld with E7018 would pass 3G,I have welded for years and a cwi,Heat is very important,AMPs So good advice,Any helpi can give Reach out!!!
Thank you , is not 3G in a V between 2 plates, with a root and a back plate ?

Appreciate your comment ;)
Pianos , restorer and tuner
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olek
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Possibly pausing in the corner is only for mig.

Esab shows a 'Christmas tree' with pauses on the walls
http://www.esabna.com/euweb/mig_handbook/592mig7_20.htm


They say to try to move the angle do the rod do not wear in angle too much on the sides (it must create gas protection problems when passing the other side)

?
Pianos , restorer and tuner
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PeteM
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Those types of movements are too complicated to develop any type of consistency.

Think Chopsticks rather than Rimski-Korsakov.

You have to do this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4MMUpjcqkQ

Before you do this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8alxBofd_eQ

You gotta play chopsticks before you get to Flight of The Bumblebee.
olek
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Ah "CA ME PARLE ;)" so no exhibition for tonight ?

I will play you "tinkle tinkle little star" at my best !

btw I did not get turn your hand back and forth" , I move the whole arm usually , better move the hand only ?

cheers
Pianos , restorer and tuner
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olek
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PeteM wrote:Those types of movements are too complicated to develop any type of consistency.

Think Chopsticks rather than Rimski-Korsakov.

You have to do this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4MMUpjcqkQ

Before you do this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8alxBofd_eQ

You gotta play chopsticks before you get to Flight of The Bumblebee.

Hello. Here is my personal version of "tinkle tinkle little star " (anon. early 20th) ;)

4 movmts :

1 CALMO
2 ALLEGRETTO MA NON TROPPO
3,ADADGIO
4 ANDANTE,

AD LIB.

CHEERS!

PS esab 48.00 3/32 90-93A no arc force (a little too much amps it worked better at 87-88A finally, quiter for me also)

II did make Z then progressively raised the middle,

BTW it can be seen in the weld but I finally had the view of the puddle moving from left to right and vice versa (I mean the cooling of the puddle of course)

Keeping that in mind should help when making less large Z or inverted U (when I go up for the U I see the puddle better for a small instant) not always as easy as I thought to see well (particularly if no "puddle" was done at the start.:()
The light of the 7018, while less shining than 6013, produce a high contrast with the puddle that make the eyes tired?
You also have days where the eyes are in less good shape? I understand the use of lcd then (and for many occasions where a lighter filter is better)


https://photos.app.goo.gl/vjlDnsPfCvs9rD2K2

I made a little more verticals, and some 6013 descending, trying to have some thickness.

Burned my pants is not it a certain sign of good progress?
Pianos , restorer and tuner
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